Feeling like I had a near death experience

DJ Smithwrote:

  I’ve done all sorts of relatively risky sports before, but never had an injury like this or even close. I love climbing but it’s got me thinking about giving it up for the sake of my Health, career, and those around me.
Alright sorry for the dramatic long post but it’s like most people who don’t climb just say “yeah just quit” but naturally I don’t want to. I know on one can make a decision on if or how I should climb again. Just wondering if anyone has similar experiences they want share

Intellectually, you know you can get killed driving a car.  But you don't really KNOW it until you have had a serious car accident, where your car gets totalled. This event changes the way you drive - at least it changed the way I drive.  I was always a careful driver but I was often driving on autopilot and had moments of distraction.  Now I don't listen to music, never talk on the phone, don't daydream etc.

I've had 2 "almost died" climbing events and two "injured, but for luck, could have been paralyzed" events (in 42 years, so it's not an everyday event!).  After you have one of these events, like you have, you now know, really KNOW, and not just on an intellectual level, that you can die or get maimed climbing.  

All of these events changed what I climb and the way I climb in various ways.  But I never for a minute thought I might want to quit climbing.  You have to decide for yourself how you go forward and how important climbing is to you.

Last thought - After the first of these events, I realized that death can come to any of us out of the blue, and it would be good to have my affairs very organized, and in order.  If you have assets, you should have at least a will, but better, a trust and a durable or springing power-of-attorney.  Even without serious assets, if you have bills, accounts, a car, a bank account, etc., you should have a comprehensive list that a partner, parent, child, trusted friend, knows how to find.  If people you love are grieving, you don't want to compound the difficulty by leaving a mess for them to deal with.

All I can add is once you break bones in a trad fall you are not going to be under any illusions as the potential for bad outcomes. That's not to say you can't tamp down that knowledge and climb hard above your pro. But you will carry the weight of your knowledge with you - fear management 101.

Somewhat unrelated but I essentially gave up skiing, a sport I deeply love, because of an ever-present threat of a truly life-altering reinjury. I still dream about skiing but every time I eye my now dusty kit, or think maybe I should get a new set of boards, you know, strictly for resort cruising, I think about my two spinal operations and the pain I endured, and I quickly shake my head no.

Its the math of pain and we all have to do our own calculations.

There is an old saying about climbing: "If you can get thru the first 5 years accident free, you are set for the rest of your career."

I didn't make it, broke my ankle in an avoidable fall in year one. But that broken bone made me a safer climber going forward. I did not want to repeat that. It showed me that I was fragile.

In the decades following, I've witnessed very bad accidents...and had 12 good friends die in the alpine. But no one on my rope.

People at the office have told me they aren't into adrenaline, but I've see some of them drive, and they live more dangerously than I. 

We evolved with an adrenaline gland. I think we have an innate need to 'chase the tiger'. It's stronger in some of us than in others. 

I camped for a couple weeks at Jtree with Ammon McNeely before his accidents. He is a heck of a nice guy, quite a story teller. His friend Ashley Solow (now passed) was my friend. After Ammon lost his leg base jumping, we were talking online about risk, and he said the thrill was worth the risk.

I like to think climbing won't kill or maim me...and I'm always vigilant...but the truth is that it could...and like Ammon said, the thrill is worth the risk. 

Be safe y'all.

I've been at this game for about 45 years now.  For almost all of them, I have been VERY conservative, rarely taking falls.  Sport climbing didn't exist when I started, and I did plenty moderate alpine where falling is just NOT a good idea ever.  So I developed a sense for my limits, comfort zones, etc.  Had some close calls--getting smacked by rock fall, just missing a big avalanche, that kind of thing.  I decided my youthful dreams of hard alpine were not worth the risk.  Now that I live close to climbing in retirement, I have done some pushing of my always modest standards-- but these have been carefully calculated on sport climbs with clean falls--and nothing that long.  What impresses me is how FAR one falls in even simple sport scenarios.  It's not just 10 feet if you are 5 feet above the bolt.  The whipper is gonna be 15 or 20 feet, depending on a lot of variables-- how far up the route, slack in the system, etc.  After taking a couple of good but safe whippers, I have a very healthy respect for the dynamics of falling that I didn't have before.  I'm TOTALLY ok with bailing on routes when I realize that ledge below is actually ground zero for impact if I come off.  Screw the ego and pick your battles wisely.  Not always easy to do.

Gene Bankswrote:

Care to share what these lessons were?

Lesson 1: never hold a tufa in a roof in an undercling position with a single toe on glassy marble while reaching up with the other hand. If the toe pops then all weight is dropped onto the one arm that has, because of the tufa holding position, isolated the distal biceps tendon- outcome complete rupture of tendon resulting in big fall and unfortunate landing . 

lesson 2: never Dyno through a roof where the hand starts well below and then has to reach over the roof and back to main wall to latch the hold. Outcome- you hit the roof with your wrist rupture all ligaments, can’t keep holding on and fall. Tweak ankle too

pretty obscure learning opportunities 

soft tissue injuries take forever to heal from surgery 

abandon moderation wrote:

I'm not who you asked, but I'll give one of mine: common wisdom in trad climbing is to not place gear that will give you drag, and that you should save your pro on the easy stuff for the parts where you might actually fall.

So what does a sensible trad climber that's looking to lead a 5.11 clean do when the first 20ft of a climb is 5.8 and would give them horrendous drag? Well, I'd just run it out. That's what everyone does.

Of course 5.11 climbers don't fall on 5.8. Until they did. Only about 15ft, but fatal.

The lesson I took from it is that I might have bad luck one day. I could also take the lesson to sew up the 5.8 sections, but then I think I'm just as likely to have an accident somewhere on the 5.11 section because I already placed the gear I should have saved. Whatever accident happens, it will probably only be obvious in hindsight. Even if you mitigate the highest risk stuff, stacked up low probability events (both falling off 5.8, and a 15 foot fall being fatal) can get you.

An example of this exact scenario:

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/109718301/gunks-accident-1115

phylp phylpwrote:

Intellectually, you know you can get killed driving a car.  But you don't really KNOW it until you have had a serious car accident, where your car gets totalled. This event changes the way you drive - at least it changed the way I drive.  I was always a careful driver but I was often driving on autopilot and had moments of distraction.  Now I don't listen to music, never talk on the phone, don't daydream etc.

I've had 2 "almost died" climbing events and two "injured, but for luck, could have been paralyzed" events (in 42 years, so it's not an everyday event!).  After you have one of these events, like you have, you now know, really KNOW, and not just on an intellectual level, that you can die or get maimed climbing.  

All of these events changed what I climb and the way I climb in various ways.  But I never for a minute thought I might want to quit climbing.  You have to decide for yourself how you go forward and how important climbing is to you.

Last thought - After the first of these events, I realized that death can come to any of us out of the blue, and it would be good to have my affairs very organized, and in order.  If you have assets, you should have at least a will, but better, a trust and a durable or springing power-of-attorney.  Even without serious assets, if you have bills, accounts, a car, a bank account, etc., you should have a comprehensive list that a partner, parent, child, trusted friend, knows how to find.  If people you love are grieving, you don't want to compound the difficulty by leaving a mess for them to deal with.

Thanks for the insight, I suppose there’s irony in how much I have learned about risk, mental fortitude under stress and the consequences in past experiences before climbing. I’ve been working as an EMT for years and have seen some of the true randomness of death. Seen the consequences of really bad decision making, but for some reason I didn’t take the that cautious approach i typically do the day I got hurt. I guess lesson learned there. Too much reliance on trusting gear will hold, too much confidence in my ability to place that gear. A plan for how I should down climb any section should have been in my head before I even racked up. 

Jonathan Swrote:

Interestingly, the hardest part for me has been the fear of being judged by my accidents, both by climbers and non-climbers alike. Although I've experienced mostly support and little direct criticism, it is something that is always in the back of my mind. I'm still working on getting past this part. This thread has been helpful for me to move forward.

This part is what keeps me up at night. I’m not feeling support from those around to pursue climbing. Almost none of them climb, and public perspective is definitely that it is way more dangerous than it is(well maybe). Of course now those who I’m close with who didn’t understand the risk/reward of it to begin with only see the great risk involve.
It’s hard to convince people that I can learn and climb much more safely when they don’t understand the details of what happened and how I can mitigate them in future. Their illusion that I can always be safe is shattered, as much mine has about the whole “that won’t happen to me” attitude. 

"Thanks for the insight, I suppose there’s irony in how much I have learned about risk, mental fortitude under stress and the consequences in past experiences before climbing. I’ve been working as an EMT for years and have seen some of the true randomness of death. Seen the consequences of really bad decision making, but for some reason I didn’t take the that cautious approach i typically do the day I got hurt."

That is ironic.  It's just too bad you had a serious injury rather than just a close call which would have taught you the same lessons.  Good luck going forward!

abandon moderation and peter beal have some good observations.  a few things i have seen quite a bit:

1) a lot of people think they place a lot better gear than they really do. especially when it comes to putting gear that looks good into rock that obviously sounds bad.

2) i see a lot of people running it pretty far on easier-but-not-easy terrain, and when they get to a section where the climbing is harder sometimes the gear opportunities aren't there. then, they are at a point where they can't really downclimb and they kind of have to commit. i have seen a few people get royally fucked in this situation.  it's better to try to have a consistent, systematic arrangement of gear throughout a pitch, and to always have an idea of how you are going to deal with it if things don't line up.

3) another one - "the fall looks clean, i am going to go for it!".  really? you have a slab with chicken heads plastered all over it beneath you...

4) you always hear people mindlessly regurgitating the whole "it's all about risk versus reward, dude!".  yeah, that sounds great until you eat the big shitburger and you would give anything to have that decision back.

slimwrote:

abandon moderation and peter beal have some good observations.  a few things i have seen quite a bit:

1) a lot of people think they place a lot better gear than they really do. especially when it comes to putting gear that looks good into rock that obviously sounds bad.

2) i see a lot of people running it pretty far on easier-but-not-easy terrain, and when they get to a section where the climbing is harder sometimes the gear opportunities aren't there. then, they are at a point where they can't really downclimb and they kind of have to commit. i have seen a few people get royally fucked in this situation.  it's better to try to have a consistent, systematic arrangement of gear throughout a pitch, and to always have an idea of how you are going to deal with it if things don't line up.

3) another one - "the fall looks clean, i am going to go for it!".  really? you have a slab with chicken heads plastered all over it beneath you...

4) you always hear people mindlessly regurgitating the whole "it's all about risk versus reward, dude!".  yeah, that sounds great until you eat the big shitburger and you would give anything to have that decision back.

Good points, particularly #2. Learning to look ahead and assess difficulties and/or gear placements ahead of you is an underrated skill in my opinion. Especially important when climbing at/near your limit or if you’re some kind of onsight purist. 

DJ Smithwrote:

This part is what keeps me up at night. I’m not feeling support from those around to pursue climbing. Almost none of them climb, and public perspective is definitely that it is way more dangerous than it is(well maybe). Of course now those who I’m close with who didn’t understand the risk/reward of it to begin with only see the great risk involve.
It’s hard to convince people that I can learn and climb much more safely when they don’t understand the details of what happened and how I can mitigate them in future. Their illusion that I can always be safe is shattered, as much mine has about the whole “that won’t happen to me” attitude. 

The people around you had a scare, too, don't forget that. 

Supporting people we care about, includes the decisions they make, good or bad. Even terrible life choices, are still decisions we each make, with or without approval.

You can't have it all ways. 

Do what you choose to do, and take responsibility for those decisions.

Also understand, your decisions may cause others a lot of grief. 

It is what it is. 

Some people back off, when they become parents, for example. Others, do not back off, and it is then the decision of the people around them to somehow accept this thing you do, as part of the package they have to deal with....or, not, and exit.

This isn't just climbing, it's lots of things. Stupid dinky things like how you fold the laundry, or big deal stuff, like heavy drinking. There's always going to be a list that doesn't sit well with other people, or is even harmful to others.

So, for example, maybe it's your mom asking, "why are you doing something that's so risky?" 

You could easily shoot back, "why did you choose to have a child, with all that possible heartbreak?"

My worry, as a mom? Will never ever go away. Do I chew my nails nightly? Not at all. I have trust. But yes, if it gets close to the call in SAR time when he's way out in the backcountry? It's really hard having that phone call rehearsing itself in your head.

It is something that isn't our decision to make, once they are an adult, what they do, the decisions they make.

You can assure people you have learned a lesson, and will not make similar mistakes going forward....

Bottom line though, it is always a risk, and they will just have to deal with it. Or more likely, choose to stay ignorant of that reality, and hope for the best. And, it may never happen. 

I'm also truly sorry this wasn't just a shit your pants scary close call for you, but, I'm glad it's all real now for you. You're better off believing that, once you are back out there. 

Best, Helen

Lol to many of the posts above - the vast mileage and years of skill acqusition and experience you skip right over by sport projecting a trad route then immediately declaring yourself a climber of the grade - but then eating shit on ez terrain climbing ground up?  It might be because you’re basically free soloing at or above your actual ability - one little mistake and it all falls apart.

Speaking with 49 years doing this, despite what is noted above I'll say that you can be experienced and have skill and still get hurt. I flew off of an overhang on climb that had never been done and slammed hard. I thought that it was likely the rope would catch before the slab under my belayer got to my ass cheek and it turned out I was wrong. Belayer was highly experienced and a fellow guide.  

Shrugs...sometimes shit happens. Glad you walked (hobbled?) away brother, I've been there for 3 fatality's and it's no fun to try and save a corpse, even if they are a stranger. 

There's a lot of moving parts in the trad game, learning all of them takes work, not forgetting them is even more work, but that is the best thing to do and even then, one is minimizing the risks and improving the odds. A big rock falling off randomly could still kill ya.  

DJ Smithwrote:

I’ve done all sorts of relatively risky sports before, but never had an injury like this or even close. I love climbing but it’s got me thinking about giving it up for the sake of my Health, career, and those around me.
Alright sorry for the dramatic long post but it’s like most people who don’t climb just say “yeah just quit” but naturally I don’t want to. I know on one can make a decision on if or how I should climb again. Just wondering if anyone has similar experiences they want share

Thanks Everyone

Since I'm new to climbing but not to potentially life-threatening sports-related accidents, I feel like I might have a worthwhile take (despite being a month late to the party). I used to go skateboarding almost every day, and it was all I could think about. If people knew nothing else about me, they knew I was a committed skater. I had various minor injuries through the years and a few more serious ones, but they never diminished my thirst for skating. I only saw them as a frustrating inconvenience that kept me from getting back to it as soon as I wanted to. I knew I wasn't invincible, but the benefits outweighed the risks for me.

Cut to around my 6th or 7th year of skateboarding. I got a pretty serious concussion from rolling into a bowl, getting hung up on the coping, and pitched onto the top of my helmetless head at the bottom. The hit was so bad that I blacked out for a moment, and nearly lost my vision. That was the moment skateboarding's risks outweighed the benefits for me, and from that point forward I began playing it safe. I still love skateboarding, but I don't skate nearly as hard or as often as I used to. I never want to get hurt like that again, it's just not worth it to me. Some people have an accident like that, and they bounce back after recovery and are willing to risk having one again because that internal pull is just too strong for them. It no longer is for me.

I guess the bottom line is everyone is different, and you can't base your decisions on how other people respond to accidents. It's a very personal and not necessarily permanent choice--if you choose to play it safer for a few years and stick to safer routes, or choose to take a break or quit altogether, that's up to you. Don't feel like any decision you make on the matter has to be forever, but don't force yourself to keep doing something in a way that feels too risky for you. People will understand wanting to cool it for a while after an accident. If they don't, they're probably not the kind of people you want as a climbing partner.

Climbing is not "dangerous" or "safe."  Different approaches to climbing populate the full safety/danger spectrum.  Therefore you don't have to either 100% keep climbing as you were or quit climbing.  A very good option may be to choose to keep climbing but dial back the risk as far as you feel is right for you.

Most long-time climbers are alive because of dumb luck and because they stopped really taking risks.

Peter Bealwrote:

Trad climbing should always be approached with a "do not fall" mentality unless you are 100% sure the situation is going to be okay. Avoiding weighting or relying on gear is a great policy for minimizing the chances of catastrophic failure of critical points. 

I disagree.  How do you know the protection you place is good if you never test it?  Falling is never 100% safe.  Even belaying isn't 100% safe.

Early in my climbing career, my partners and I would try a (short) trad climb a grade (or two) beyond our limit.  We would stich those climbs up, and fall on every piece.  We learned a lot about which placements work and which do not.  And how a piece could catch one fall, but pop on the second.  And we how to place protection when we were barely able to hang onto the rock.  And how to clean a stuck piece...

Nick Niebuhrwrote:

Thanks for sharing. 

In 2014 I had a big fall a few pitches up a route where I ripped a small cam, and went tumbling past my wife/belayer for what we estimated to be a total of around 50ft, ending up upside down on a small ledge when the rope went tight. I was lucky enough to only have a busted helmet, and sore ankle and wrist. My wife's hand got chewed up by her ATC a bit, and emotionally it was a pretty difficult experience for her. Fortunately we were able to bail and hike out without issue. I don't remember how long it was until I was climbing again, but it wasn't too long; probably as soon as I got a new helmet. That fall could've been far worse, and I for sure learned my lessons about running out above small cams and not being too far off the belay etc., but ultimately the way I see it is that it just wasn't my day, and I don't think the thought of quitting climbing ever crossed my mind. 

What I get from this is that your wife caught a F2 fall on an ATC. Sounds like you have got a keeper there! :-)

Steve Waltmanwrote:

I disagree.  How do you know the protection you place is good if you never test it?  Falling is never 100% safe.  Even belaying isn't 100% safe.

Early in my climbing career, my partners and I would try a (short) trad climb a grade (or two) beyond our limit.  We would stich those climbs up, and fall on every piece.  We learned a lot about which placements work and which do not.  And how a piece could catch one fall, but pop on the second.  And we how to place protection when we were barely able to hang onto the rock.  And how to clean a stuck piece...

I didn't say 100% safe, I said 100% sure it's going to be okay. So if there's any doubt, don't take and definitely don't fall. That doesn't preclude doing what you described.