IfSC and USAC trans competitor policies

For those social justice warriors worried about possible discrimination of the cis-gendered athletes, worry no more - Texas Free Republic has your back. 

https://www.texastribune.org/2022/03/01/transgender-child-lawsuit-abbott/ 

The state of Texas is investigating a family for child abuse after the parents obtained gender-affirming care for their 16-year-old transgender daughter. It’s believed to be among the first of these probes since the governor directed the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services to target such care a week ago.

amariuswrote:

For those social justice warriors worried about possible discrimination of the cis-gendered athletes, worry no more - Texas Free Republic has your back. 

https://www.texastribune.org/2022/03/01/transgender-child-lawsuit-abbott/ 

I guess you didn’t watch a lot of daytime TV back in the day, but the number of parents who decided their kid was a different gender than they were born was almost daily news. I don’t support the Texas law but I feel there should be a large amount of regulation to protect children, parents, and trans people. 

Also, I am curious about whether the state of Texas actually has power over parents who received firm and clear medical advice about their child transitioning. I would think if doctors make something that is a recommendation (like vaccines), and the parents do not follow their professional advice, that the parents can be pursued for negligence. 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

I guess you didn’t watch a lot of daytime TV back in the day, but the number of parents who decided their kid was a different gender than they were born was almost daily news. I don’t support the Texas law but I feel there should be a large amount of regulation to protect children, parents, and trans people. 

Also, I am curious about whether the state of Texas actually has power over parents who received firm and clear medical advice about their child transitioning. I would think if doctors make something that is a recommendation (like vaccines), and the parents do not follow their professional advice, that the parents can be pursued for negligence. 

daytime TV is not the same as reality.
and yes, what's happening in texas is specifically that parents who've followed the medical advice of doctors and therapists are now having their families torn apart. It's specifically the receiving of trans healthcare that's being described as abuse. And almost everywhere in the country still follows WPATH which requires multiple mental health professionals to sign off before a doctor and an insurer can even be consulted.

and yes, I personally have a medical record trail of my transition while living in texas, as an adult. and yes, they will come for all trans care right after they finish with kids, they did it with bathrooms, they'll do it with sports also.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

I guess you didn’t watch a lot of daytime TV back in the day, but the number of parents who decided their kid was a different gender than they were born was almost daily news

You are a little wrong - I did not watch daytime TV anytime.

IIRC you are a person who proudly and loudly  loves statistics.
A quick search on numbers of transgendered individuals in US, if an inquisitive mind so desired, would result in this, for example, hit - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5227946/
Considering probabilities daytime TV would have to spend all day time covering these ground breaking and shocking revelations. I think coverage would need to be expanded to cable networks, notably Faux News, to reach audiences that find humane behavior especially offensive.

Mx Amiewrote:

daytime TV is not the same as reality.
and yes, what's happening in texas is specifically that parents who've followed the medical advice of doctors and therapists are now having their families torn apart. It's specifically the receiving of trans healthcare that's being described as abuse. And almost everywhere in the country still follows WPATH which requires multiple mental health professionals to sign off before a doctor and an insurer can even be consulted.

Then Texas has probably overplayed their hand. Does anyone have an example of someone going to jail for following medical advice? I simply can't imagine going to court against the state and when expert testimony is held, the doctor says the child needs the care? I feel like the law is toothless and mostly just conservatives virtue signaling they don't like trans people.

It sounds like you did it the way it should be done, all I am saying is that there are crazy parents out there and that the gender identity of their child should be dependent on the child and experts medical opinion.

amarius wrote:

You are a little wrong - I did not watch daytime TV anytime.

IIRC you are a person who proudly and loudly  loves statistics.
A quick search on numbers of transgendered individuals in US, if an inquisitive mind so desired, would result in this, for example, hit -  ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl…
Considering probabilities daytime TV would have to spend all day time covering these ground breaking and shocking revelations. I think coverage would need to be expanded to cable networks, notably Faux News, to reach audiences that find humane behavior especially offensive.

All I am saying is there are crazy parents. In all the parental child abuse insurance claims I have ever seen, I don't think any court case that heavily relied on the expert opinion of a credible doctor that the doctor was overruled. In my mind the law will only apply to parents that didn't actually take children to real doctors. 

The article linked above, I am skeptical. People say they have "records" if the reporter hasn't seen and verified records, then the credibility is skeptical because everyone has "records."

Your NCBI study is legit, I imagine the vast majority of kids who are trans are identifying that way themselves and not under their parents will. 

FrankPSwrote:

Parents of children under 18 shouldn't help change their child's gender.

A doctor or therapist that suggests a child under 18 should change their gender is a quack. A doctor that participates in changing a minor's gender should lose their license.

I strongly disagree. Medical opinions based in evidence even if contrary to mainstream belief should be held as reliable. You can't pick and choose which doctors treatments you believe in.  If there is a coalition of opinion on an issue I think you have to lean towards accepting that opinion. 

Parents of children under 18 shouldn't help change their child's gender.

A doctor or therapist that suggests a child under 18 should change their gender is a quack. A doctor that participates in changing a minor's gender should lose their license.

FrankPSwrote:

Parents of children under 18 shouldn't help change their child's gender.

A doctor or therapist that suggests a child under 18 should change their gender is a quack. A doctor that participates in changing a minor's gender should lose their license.

well, texas specifically excludes the surgical mutilation that happens to intersex kids from the laws they wield against trans kids, so it's just the usual conservative game of "laws that bind outgroups and protect ingroups, but not vise versa"

PSA: most transgender people do not change their gender to be more competitive in sports.

Get over yourselves. People deserve to be happy and healthy.

Why is this controversial? Let's just let his play out. When biological male/transgender females are the top 10 athletes in every women's sport this argument will end. 

A V wrote:

I'll qualify my statement by saying that I'm a bit of a cynic and a misanthrope when it comes to large groups of folks. I think formal competition tends to bring out the worst in people (and not just in the boilerplate suburban Karens & Johns it tends to attract) - I don't think there is a "correct" answer to this question other than burn it all to the ground. 

Just sharing my experience growing up as an athlete in competitive youth sports. Everybody is miserable in some way, there's very little room for creativity, there is lots of abuse that goes on, and your self-worth/social ranking is directly tied to your results (and even then, if you win - you just won amongst this specific group of athletes who happen to not be injured at this time - you still suck on a global scale unless you are in the top handful of competitors globally). There is very little sustainable fun and a lot of self loathing. Sure it's fun to compete at something, but only for a little bit, imo. YMMV. Maybe some people have it figured out, but thats the impression I've come away with in regards to competitive sports - at least at the Youth level. It's sad that this scene inherently adds fuel to the fire of transphobia, I don't think there is a way to solve it other than to shun it.

Not sure how much of this relates to trans athletes competition, but are you saying the only way to solve trans athletes competing is to “shun it”….a La #cancelculture style?

KalA Bertolinowrote:

PSA: most transgender people do not change their gender to be more competitive in sports.

Get over yourselves. People deserve to be happy and healthy.

I agree with what you’re saying 100%…however, this discussion is regarding trans athletes and their competition. While they might not change their gender for competition, if that change does actually provides an unfair advantage (like in weightlifting) then it is fair to address the individuals gender/transition.

They can be happy and healthy while still adhering to whatever rules and guidelines are in place for fair competition. I realize that sometimes we don’t agree with the ruling, but if we are to assume the rules and guidelines are in place to create a fair competitive environment then I think it is completely warranted to address and discuss trans athletes and their gender. 

A V wrote:

You do what you want, but I'm not putting my kids through the mental meatgrinder of elite level sports. I mean, look at the prevalence of shit like eating disorders. Most of those people are comp climbers, trying to be "the best" or whatever that means in spite of picking up dysfunctional behaviors to get there. It's an awful culture of "performance" that we generally enable because it's the cultural norm to do so. Saying anything negative about that scene is usually met with a look of confusion or accusations of being a loser or whatever. People are super sensitive about the elephant in the room that nobody wants to talk about, until it's too late. Every high level sport has so many skeletons in it's closet, that I begin to wonder if this is cultural obsession of ours is healthy, and whether or not we can do better. 

Cool, what does this have to with trans athletes though? Much if this discussion isn’t even exclusively applicable to “elite” athletes. Much of what has been discussed can actually be applied to any level of competition involving trans athletes of both average and elite levels. 

Personally, I know that it will never get canceled just like people will never stop going to the casino hoping for that big payout. But I felt like I should share my cynicism on this issue, and maybe urge Trans athletes to reconsider putting themselves in contact with nasty people who are overly concerned about things that don't matter when they don't have to. Obviously there are cool people here and there in the comp scene, but people who are familiar with high level sports know exactly the kind of person that I am talking about. 

As someone who has competed beyond college/semi-professionally in one sport, and knows many others in other sports, I would have to vehemently disagree. I’m sorry you’ve experienced this in whatever elite sport you participated in, but advising trans athletes against doing what they presumably enjoy doing because they may encounter mean people is just lame advice and not the point of this thread if you ask me. 

Edit: This thread is depressing, so many people who have posted are out of touch with what it means to be trans in America. Lots of dog whistling going on here. 

Maybe I’m not understanding what you’re saying but how is encouraging trans athletes to quit competitive sport(s) because of what/who they may encounter not contributing to the “depressing” undertones of this thread? 

KalA Bertolinowrote:

PSA: most transgender people do not change their gender to be more competitive in sports.

Get over yourselves. People deserve to be happy and healthy.

This is a great example of gotcha logic. Like I said earlier in the thread I am indifferent to trans athletes competing. But posts like this and like Franks undermine what you are advocating.

Most adults don't buy houses to show off the wealth they have accumulated, does that mean billionaires should be immune to criticism?
Most adults eat beef, does that mean we should ignore environmental impacts?
Most hateful groups don't kill anyone, does that mean they should all be immune to concerns about violence?
Most guns dont kill people, should we ban guns?

If I felt like an inadequate man and wanted to take a bunch of HGH to better affirm my gender identity should I be immune to testing?

Like I said earlier it isn't that simple, people who think it is should maybe put the forum down and pick up a book.

AV

I loved competition in college! I only like to be a try hard! Trans athletes should have the same opportunity, I just don't have any idea in how or what that should look like. Maybe we just let it play out a little more.

But what you are kinda implying is that in 1930s black people shouldn't have aspired to be baseball players because it sucks. I agree baseball sucks but they should be able to play if they so choose.

FrankPSwrote:

Parents of children under 18 shouldn't help change their child's gender.

A doctor or therapist that suggests a child under 18 should change their gender is a quack. A doctor that participates in changing a minor's gender should lose their license.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7073269/

You're entitled to your opinion, but if you ever have a trans child or grandchild, puberty blockers might save their life :)

Any high level male in nearly any sport can compete and even dominate in elite level female athletics. There is a lot of overlap in strength for men and women in the population as a whole but if you assume a 1 SD difference in athletic performance at the median and same SD for both men and women (men in reality would have a larger SD) the top 10% of men would perform better than the bottom 99% of women. Competitive climbers are the outliers in athletic ability, so they are the top .1%. Take a top .1% man and pit him against women, even with hormone blockers, there will be no fair competition. Look at high school swimming for the real world consequences. 

seems like having  a gender change in sports is the ultimate weight cut.  Can't win at welterweight but if I do a massive weight cut maybe I can win at Lightweight.  Fck,  that didn't work  lets do a gender change and beat the women.  Unlikely that anyone would intentionally do this but  intentionally or not that's what they are doing. 

A V wrote:

Not may but will. My argument is that the highest levels of competition are rotten to the core. 

They will receive criticism if successful enough, sure…but to lump all of the highest levels of any competition into one category you deem evil is unfair and shows how much bias you are including in your argument. I am truly sorry you had such a bad experience doing whatever it is you did at the highest of levels. However, that is not the case for many, and is not a valid reason to discourage someone to continue doing what they enjoy.

It‘s seems whatever elite sport you participated in has left a negative impact on your life, but my point is that this is not the case for many, or even most. There are certainly many instances of parents forcing kids into toxic competitive atmospheres at a young age, but that’s an entirely different conversation and not necessarily applicable to this thread. We are discussing trans athletes and who they may/may not  be “allowed” to compete against. Not the positives and negatives of elite sports.  

Trev, I agree with the 1930’s baseball analogy in this scenario.  

Thats my thought AV, the ladies who came in second should know that they are the real winners and I suspect they do. I actually think the (right wing) press is fueling the real fire here, I know some of the athletes are upset but I'd like to see a poll among the athletes themselves before I form any solid opinions.

A V wrote:

I didn't have a bad experience, honestly. I find your reasoning that because my perspective is what it is - that I had a bad overall experience - to be weak/unconvincing (i.e. I must just be a crazy salty person - so it’s okay to dismiss my insight). I also find it odd how upset you are with my views here, and you are misrepresenting my words when you’re responding (maybe you’re skimming through my posts? I understand they are wordy - this is the vibe I’m getting here) 

I’m just sharing my impression of what is wrong with the culture surrounding high level comps. Overall, I enjoyed my experience (hockey), in spite of its many shortcomings. That comes from a position of privilege though. I was good at what I did and feel satisfied because I got the experience of competing other people who were good at it too. I was once mired in negative feelings about winning/losing and self worth (hello teen years!) - but I've since processed them and was able to see into what was actually valuable to me (mainly by pursuing adventure sports, which are way radder, and the meeting the wonderful people that exist in that realm). I would say that I've burned out of my old culture. I know that my impression and story is not unique - you'll meet plenty of happy former "burn-out" elite level athletes in outdoor climbing that believe that "winning is everything" mentality just ain't how it is.  

I mean you did nothing but trash high level competitive sports and your experience participating in them, so I’m not sure how my assumption that you had a bad experience was that farfetched or “weak”. I think your insight is valid, just not applicable.

I’m also not upset at all   I was just trying to express that I feel bad that you’ve only experienced high level competition in the way you have portrayed it. If any emotion arose during my posts it would have mostly been annoyance as you are seemingly in support of the trans community and trans athletes, yet advise them against competing because they might *gasp* face adversity.

Maybe this could be helped by negating any negative penalty suffered by a female competitor (i.e. 40 people advance to nationals for the men, 40 women + x number of trans athletes advance to nationals for the women) to satisfy sore competitors that feel they are being treated unfairly. Basically, who cares if you lost to a trans athlete is my view - who exactly won isn’t what’s ultimately important. This perspective is the way forward, but people are going to be unwilling to accept it - so far is my experience in discussing these things. 

I mostly agree with this in that you shouldn‘t care if you lost to a trans athlete, or any athlete for that matter….if they beat your fairly. However, it‘s important to be reminded (again) that if they have an unfair advantage, like in weightlifting or wrestling for example, then it 100% should be addressed…or at least discussed.…Unless whatever competition you’re doing truly doesn’t care about who “exactly won” in which case you might as well give trophies to everyone and I would start to question how elite or high level that competition actually is.

As far as climbing goes, I don’t know if I necessarily see enough advantage to warrant penalizing trans athletes the way that has been done in certain scenarios.