Tips for ascending rope with guide mode style devices?

When the topic of ascending ropes comes up, someone always suggests the method of flipping your ATC guide (or similar) into guide mode and makes it sound like a fairly efficient way to ascend. It sounds like a handy trick, but I've now tried it twice and it seems like no improvement over ascending with two prusiks. The issue I've had is that it is very difficult to pull the rope through the device after stepping up on the prusik. I have tried both pulling up directly on the brake strands and pulling down by re-directing the brake strands through a carabiner on the prusik above the device. 

Any tips and tricks to make this easier? Or is it really just another not-so-great option for ascending the ropes when needed? The obvious solution is to stop putting myself in situations where I have to ascend the rope, but it's always good to be prepared..

Edited to add:

I can't reply due to post limits, so I am adding to my initial post to hopefully direct the replies towards the question I am actually after. I am well aware of how to set up the ATC in guide mode to ascend (as well as several alternatives). However, in practice the friction between the brake strands and the belay device is significant and makes ascending very inefficient. I am wondering if anybody has any tips to reduce that friction? 

I have seen this technique being recommended often so I thought it would be better than other options, but after trying it out a couple of times I would rather just use two friction hitches unless there is a way to reduce the friction.

John G posted a video of someone ascending using the ATC guide mode method and she appeared to be able to easily pull the brake strand through the device. However, I suspect that is likely because she was only ascending a single strand. 

I thought I was clear, but I guess I might not have been. 

I am referring to instances where you have done a double strand rappel and and need to ascend back up for some reason. If the line is fixed there are obviously many much easier solutions. 

The foot prusik is above your ATC, right?

I feel the same way about flipping the device. It's a cool trick, but in practicality there's too much friction for it to be useful. I think it gets taught because it's familiar and requires minimal gear.

I think a far faster way is to ascend with friction hitches. They glide a lot smoother than a flipped plate. One downside of using friction hitches is you need a hard closure (clipped to you) as opposed to a soft closure (just knots in the line) as a backup.

1. tie a backup knot/clove. Clip to belay loop.
2. tie a klemheist with a double length sling above your device. Clip to belay loop.
3. lower yourself onto the klemheist. Remove belay device.
4. Use the autoblock that was your third hand as a foot loop. I find this easiest by using the rope; tie a clove hitch on the carabiner clipped to the autoblock, then girth hitch your foot.
5. ascend and adjust your backup as needed.

FrankPS wrote:

The foot prusik is above your ATC, right?

Haha yes.

I reached my post limit, so editing to add my reply to Adam below.

Thanks Adam! Glad to hear others have had difficulty with this technique as well.

I have ascended with two friction hitches in the past. I kept hearing about this cool trick so I figured I'd give it a shot. I was hoping that I was just missing some simple trick to reduce the friction, but it sounds like it's really not some magical tool to make ascending easier. Flipping the belay device does make for a faster transition though, so maybe it's a good tool if only having to go back up short distances. For longer distances I'll probably switch back to friction hitches.

Assuming the prussik is above as Frank mentioned, ascending in guide mode is arduous at best. Definitely need a skinny rope for it to feel even close to reasonable.

Prusick above the atc with a foot loop, weight the prusick, pull the brake strand upward. Sit on the atc, move prusick up, weight the prusick, repeat. 

The guide mode works best with a rond stock carabiner (harder with a H beam) 

To help with the brake strand you can clip an extra carabiner to the prusick and pass the brake strand in it, it will make a kind of z pulley and help with the load. 

Deleted my comment. Discovered a new way to top rope solo. I don't like it though, lol.

Francois beat me to the method i was going to recommend for making ascension possible

Petzl rollNclips are used a lot by arborists as the carabiner to put the brake strand through. You can also use hand ascenders instead of prussics but you prob already know that.

Francois Dumas wrote:

To help with the brake strand you can clip an extra carabiner to the prusick and pass the brake strand in it, it will make a kind of z pulley and help with the load. 

I've found this makes it even harder to pull slack through an ATC. The addition of that redirecting carabiner caused too much friction for me, although it sounded like a good idea to pull down, instead of up, on the brake strands.

Ascending with a guide mode ATC requires a different setup than rapping. That's your problem, OP.

If the device is extended out from your harness for the rappel, and if you can unweight it, then you can re-clip so it's in guide mode.  Otherwise you're no better off than any other ATC rap.

And no, I'm not going to go into a how-to about this.

If you're using an extended rappel, you can clip the attachment point on your ATC to your belay loop to put it into auto-locking mode (like this).

Then you can climb the rope like this:

Ive used it before to retrieve another group's stuck rope while ours was still through a nearby anchor. Wasn't very difficult to pull rope and was pretty easy to set up with gear i had on me (ATC, single and double length runners). This was on somewhat slabby terrain not free hanging (Birdland).

If you are at anchors and need to ascend to higher anchors, you could fix the rope on one side and ascend a single line on the other side. You could also do the same thing by fixing it at a bolt.

It’s easier to use the alpine GriGri style (ATC in guide mode) on a single rope. This also gives you the option of switching to a GriGri or similar device.

Have a friction hitch above the flipped device to redirect the brake strand as you're doing, but instead of clip a foot loop to this friction hitch to stand up on, simply do a foot wrap on the redirected brake strand and stand up on that. It's not fast by any means due to the pulley, but it's more efficient because you're using your bodyweight to pull the rope through instead of using your arms. Thinner rope or single strand definitely makes this easier.

The most likely explanation is that your ropes are some combination of thick, fuzzy, and stiff.  It is also possible that the carabiner used to implement braking in the plaquette is adding to the resistance (a round-stock carabiner would be best).  The point is that there are enough gear variables to make the technique effective in some circumstances and overly laborious in others, and it sounds as if, with the gear you have, the technique isn't very good, especially in rappel mode when you have to haul two ropes through the plaquette.

Short of getting thinner, less worn ropes (and maybe a round-stock biner if you aren't using one now), your best bet is to use some other ascending technique.

There are a number of assisted-braking devices that can be changed from rappelling to progress-capture mode with little or no faffing.  I use the CT Alpine Up, which allows you to change to ascending mode with no adjustments or changes---just pull the rope through while moving up as you would with a Grigri (but of course the UP works on double rap lines).  On less than vertical ground, I've ascended short distances to clear snags without having to install prusiks.

aikibujn - interesting idea. If I ever try this method again I'll attempt this. 

rgold - thanks for the input. Yesterday I was ascending an older 9.5mm rope so I do think the rope played a role, but I also had similar issues when ascending half ropes last summer. It was maybe a little easier with the half ropes, but still a lot of friction. Round stock carabiner both times. Yesterday I was also in ski boots and had skis on my back, so that certainly didn't help matters.. but really the crux was pulling the rope through the device, not dealing with all that extra weight. 

I agree, my best bet is to just use a different ascending technique. I'll maybe try this technique again if I'm using thinner ropes, but I think otherwise I'll just use two friction hitches.

Get a skinnier rope. Also a BD Guide is smoother than a reverse due to bigger rope slots. 

I have only tried it once and it could be a training issue, but I did not find the alpine grigri type of setup significantly more efficient that normal prusik climbing.