IfSC and USAC trans competitor policies

I have a teenager on a swim team another on a climbing team and everyone is talking about Lia Thomas. it looks like the ifsc wouldn't let her compete because it interferes with fair competition. is that the way you interpret it?

https://cdn.ifsc-climbing.org/images/ifsc/Footer/Athletes/181124_Policy_Statement_Gender_Identity_Transexuality.pdf

I'm sure this post won't be divisive. No, not at all.

It certainly leaves the door open to it. But I noticed it does not define "fair and safe" competition.

From the IFSC policy-

1. Those who transition from male to female are eligible to compete in the female category under the following conditions:

   1. The athlete has declared that her gender identity is female. The declaration cannot be changed, for sporting purposes, for a minimum of four years.

   2. The athlete must demonstrate that her total testosterone level in serum has been below 10 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to her first competition (with the requirement for any longer period to be based on a confidential case-by-case evaluation, considering whether or not 12 months is a sufficient length of time to minimize any advantage in women’s competition).

Eliminate gender separation.

Devise a numerical point system.

Provide handicap scores like golf depending upon testosterone history.

In the end though, it's still boring as shit.

All I know, is if I grow my hair out, shave my beard, and tuck my pecker to the side, I’d still get my ass handed to me.

The difference between men and women in climbing is much less significant than something like shot put or high hurdles. 

Ryan Bowenwrote:

All I know, is if I grow my hair out, shave my beard, and tuck my pecker to the side, I’d still get my ass handed to me.

The difference between men and women in climbing is much less significant than something like shot put or high hurdles. 

I think at the competition level there would be a significant advantage for an athlete who went through male puberty. I don't think testosterone levels tell the whole story either. 

I couldn't find a USAC reference on this though.

There is no winning in this situation. 

This a more general question around this situation, but still applies.

To anyone who thinks natal males who experienced male puberty should be allowed to transition and compete vs natal females, even after 12months on hormones and hormone blockers:

Why should we have female (protected) classes of sports?

For context, even extremely low-testosterone men, at the far left tail of male distribution, have orders of magnitude more T than very high-testosterone females. The large development differences begin in utero, one reason why women experience pregnancy with boys so differently than with girls.

(the only athletic category in which women consistently match or beat men are multi-day ultra-ultra endurance events like the Moab 240mile race, where sleep deprivation and long term pain tolerance becomes a major factor.)

Having seen both Alex Puccio and Matt Fultz competing on exactly the same final at a local bouldering comp? It made it clear to me that climbing is closer than most sports. It really is only at the truly elite level that male/female makes any difference. They each won....their own division. But using the exact same problem. Pretty cool to see that! And, the pros who were there blew the others out of the water, of course, but the talented ones had fun giving it a great shot.

That's what I like about climbing, though. I didn't compete that day....but I could have. I boulder outside on the same rocks Matt Fultz used to play on. Probably the same rocks were played on by bored kids 10,000 years ago. I rather like that!

As to the topic?

Dunno how it will sort out, down the road, but I'm old enough to remember all the suspicion at the Olympics bitd, when eastern block women seemed rather too massive to have managed that without t.

Otoh?

One of the most powerhouse women I ever met, nothing but muscle, and lots of it?

Was the shotputter on the women's university team. She totally blew the normal bmi charts out of the water!

I do think this will sort, eventually. But it will take some more time, figuring out the balance between fairness to all....and still trying to keep athletics at least pretending to be based solely on effort, not supplements. But? What about replacement body parts that outperform the originals? I fully expect to see wildly enhanced humans in my lifetime. 

Best, Helen

Bill Wwrote:

I have a teenager on a swim team another on a climbing team and everyone is talking about Lia Thomas. it looks like the ifsc wouldn't let her compete because it interferes with fair competition. is that the way you interpret it?

https://cdn.ifsc-climbing.org/images/ifsc/Footer/Athletes/181124_Policy_Statement_Gender_Identity_Transexuality.pdf

Actually, it looks like they would allow her to compete because her testosterone has been below 10 nmol/L (same as NCAA requirement for swimmers) for at least 12 months prior to her first competition.

Old lady Hwrote:

Dunno how it will sort out, down the road, but I'm old enough to remember all the suspicion at the Olympics bitd, when eastern block women seemed rather too massive to have managed that without t.

I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

The eastern block women were totally pumped full of testosterone.

That's why they won. 

This is not a secret

Matt Himmelsteinwrote:

Actually, it looks like they would allow her to compete because her testosterone has been below 10 nmol/L (same as NCAA requirement for swimmers) for at least 12 months prior to her first competition.

Right. I think it's just a matter of time until the Lia Thomas story comes to many sports, not just climbing. What other factors could they use besides testosterone to determine what's fair?

Bill Wwrote:

What other factors could they use besides testosterone to determine what's fair?

Here's an idea - If your birth certificate says you were born female, then and only then, could you compete in girls' or womens' sports. What do you think?

FrankPSwrote:

Here's an idea - If your birth certificate says you were born female, then and only then, could you compete in girls' or womens' sports. What do you think?

I think there's more to it than that. The birth certificate gender is the opinion of a doctor with only two choices, male or female, on what is more of a spectrum.

FrankPSwrote:

Here's an idea - If your birth certificate says you were born female, then and only then, could you compete in girls' or womens' sports. What do you think?

Because PWBCSTWBFNBA is neither as pithy, nor as accurate, as WNBA. 

What do the women competing think about it? Do they even care or is this an opportunity to exercise transphobia before the facts are in? I don’t like the idea of attacking a marginalized group without a bit more information…

Greg Daviswrote:

What do the women competing think about it? Do they even care or is this an opportunity to exercise transphobia before the facts are in? I don’t like the idea of attacking a marginalized group without a bit more information…

Contrary to popular belief, believing that biological men shouldn’t be competing as a woman isn’t transphobic 

Ryan Bowenwrote:

Contrary to popular belief, believing that biological men shouldn’t be competing as a woman isn’t transphobic 

True. Not all bigotry is rooted in phobia. For example, some bigots are just assholes.

Ryan Bowenwrote:

Contrary to popular belief, believing that biological men shouldn’t be competing as a woman isn’t transphobic 

Not did I say it was. The conversation always sweats with transphobic and ignorant takes/comments and while I understand the desire to open the pandoras box and have this conversation on a public forum it is a sensitive topic involving marginalized groups of people, usually without any input from anyone actually involved. 

Feel free to wax poetic if you want about what trans people can and can't do, its just cringe.

Bill Wwrote:

I think there's more to it than that. The birth certificate gender is the opinion of a doctor with only two choices, male or female, on what is more of a spectrum.

Sex is binary barring disorders. There are XX and XY. This is grade 10 biology.

People can identify with what they want, I think people call this gender now. I really don't mind what people want to identify as, or how they dress or who they are attracted to, but sex is not something you can change.