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Steve De Maio route bolted w/o permission
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The route in question... terrible form. |
 They can't even use the excuse that they didn't know anything about the route. "Formerly Boulevard Circus in previous guides, though I’m told Steve De Maio does not have recollection of this FA." I have no idea if Steve made it easy for others to contact him. If not, maybe that would have prevented this if he had concerns about rogue sport climbers. |
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Devil's Glen is 98% choss anyway, it's not even good trad climbing, I wouldn't put my name as the FA but bolting it makes sense. Just like people actually lead stuff at rattlesnake now. |
Connor Dobsonwrote: Doesn't matter, they didn't ask permission. |
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A complete lack of respect, par for course these days. Chop chop. |
Tradibanwrote: did they need to? (not because i agree with what happened, but more to stir the pot if you feel me...) |
Connor Dobsonwrote: There’s so much contradictory/irrelevant garble in this post, I can see why it makes perfect sense to you. “New route” name and pics should be deleted from MP forthwith to discourage this type of ego-driven cowardice in the future. This wasn’t some rap bolted contrivance. This retro bolt violates all acceptable stds — was it led ground up? Can it be toproped? Try to discuss with FA? I’d love to hear an expanded defense of this. |
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Not sarcasm, serious question: Isn't this the exact scenario where bolting is the right call? Looks like the route is considered chossy and has a popularity issue. With obvious marks and breakage from cams/nuts pulling through or out, isn't this the exact time when conservation efforts should dictate the route be bolted as the lesser evil? Also, isn't the route still able to be climbed trad? Again, with the explosion of new climbers doing trad with minimal experience, a lot of these older routes in my local crag keep getting blowouts or pull throughs(not sure on terminology here) widening the crack or placement they are in. That seems like another conservation problem that I have no clue how to solve either. Seriously not trolling here guys, I'm actually interested to see what is the right answer here. Kind of new to the morality of this. |
Mark Pilatewrote: This isn't some adventure climbing with awesome crack systems, this is short single pitch limestone choss in Ontario. Many routes have been retro bolted so that people will actually climb them in Ontario. I would personally ask permission but the outrage because someone climbed it years ago is overblown imo. If one can top rope it just fine to get a feel for it, one can also lead it without the bolts, I mean people do that all the time over here in CA on hard retro bolted routes. Calling it an FA is mega lame though |
Connor Dobsonwrote: Ok, you can at least see the incongruity can’t you? If it’s that lame and chossy, and can be toproped, why did someone bother to put in bolts, re-name it, and post it??? Maybe I don’t understand the definition of lame |
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Regardless of ethics, a currently inactive participant from 40 years ago should have as much say in the matter - zero. |
Jeremiah Whitewrote: No, it has already been established as a trad climb.
Popularity has no bearing on bolting as that's mob rule.
Yes, but by adding bolts it forces the trad climber to skip adequate pro (the bolts) and thusly changes the "experience".
These climbers need to learn to choose climbs at their level.
There is no "right" answer, it's all opinions but some bolters nowadays seek to apply their vision in defiance of long set traditions and will use any excuse to justify their actions, "it's chossy", "it's dangerous", blah blah blah. It may not be fair that many were born earlier and climbed these routes, but life isn't fair and there are plenty of other routes available if one can't handle a "dangerous" route. Regardless, Steve himself said it best: Hey guys - I am delighted to hear that you liked the line. In fact, I remember the route very well (no one has ever asked me about it -- and I may have a photo of Rick Susgin seconding it on the First Ascent somewhere) Rick Susgin and I climbed it in the spring of 1984. In those days, we considered it an artistic and adventurous challenge to climb such routes without bolts. We viewed the rock as a "canvas" and, for such routes, we first had to vision the creation of it, then had to summon all our skill and courage to climb them. This was all done ground up, and on-sight -- cleaning on lead as we climbed. I recall very clearly the moves I made even now, almost 38 years later, over the rock up to the difficult section. The rock was very good -- it inspired confidence. I must say, though, that I am disapointed to hear that this route was bolted. While I do a lot of sport climbing these days and love it, I do feel that we don't need to make all the routes "vanilla" if you get me. We should leave some of the old routes in their original state for those that want to taste a style that has gone out of favor. The route could have been easily top roped if someone wanted to try it without risk or consequence. That would have left the "adventure element" for anyone that wanted to lead the route in its original state as it was originally climbed. As I said, I remember this route very well, the texture of the rock on my fingertips, the feeling of those moves -- in part because of the level of intense conscentration and skill it required to climb it ground up, on sight, without bolts. Now, no one will get to experience the adventure that I did. It's too bad, really. I'm not mad about the bolts, I merely feel like I am in attendence at a funeral, so to speak -- one more wild place, however small, has succumbed to the drill and stainless steel bolts. Steve De Maio |
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If adding bolts to a route means you can claim FA, can I add another bolt to the start of this one and claim it’s my route now? |
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"Note: This article has generated reactions on social media from both sides of the conversation about to-bolt or not-to-bolt. We at Gripped will publish any climber’s opinion about climbing-related issues. At the end of the day, the most important thing is maintaining access to these routes, so be sure to support your local access groups." I appreciated these words by gripped. Steve should have been contacted, and if he said "no don't bolt it" and the party wanted to bolt it anyway and take that stand that would be their call. "Now, no one will get to experience the adventure that I did. It’s too bad, really. I’m not mad about the bolts, I merely feel like I am in attendance at a funeral, so to speak — one more wild place, however small, has succumbed to the drill and stainless steel bolts." Personally I don't have any criticism either way, I see both sides of the argument and more am curious by people who are dogmatic and absolute in their ethics. This party took the time and cost to equip a line they thought they should. Common courtesy would have been to reach out (and probably not put your name in the FA). |
Mark Pilatewrote: I'll bite. Something can be a fun sport climb and an awful trad climb. If something has wandery R rated gear that causes fucked up drag and makes you climb crappy features to get to said gear it can be not a great climb that gets rarely done. Throw in a few bolts and pulling on the holds can be fun. I haven't climbed this specific route but grew up in Ontario and can say a lot of routes *can* be protected with gear but are better as sport climbs, and have been retro bolted for this reason. Ontario limestone is generally broken nonsense and I have seen otherwise good looking gear pull multiple times, it's just not an awesome place to trad climb. Im not advocating for power drilling bolts in and turning DG into a gym but I just think the whole "adventure, artistic, spiritual" experience think is kind of silly for this specific location. Some places are great to keep more adventure driven, the desert, alpine adventures, even more granite or sandstone cragging but broken choss-stone in S Ontario just ain't it. I think FAist should really consider allowing rebolting rarely done lines if they would make good sport climbs, and people who are interested in helping push that forward should contact those FAs first as well. Basically: Retrobolting choss in Ontario: perfectly fine Doing so without permission: semi-lame Sequestering a route that has mostly likely half fallen off by now because you did it on gear 40 years ago: semi-lame Calling it an FA: lame |
Connor Dobsonwrote: Fair enough. We’re largely in agreement. No need to split hairs on degrees of lameness |
Connor Dobsonwrote: Of the 156 climbs listed on MP for this area, 66 of them are trad with a few routes in the 3 and 4 star range. This area is unlikely a pile of choss. |
Jeremiah Whitewrote: I couldn't care less about some choss pile in canada, but why is lack of popularity/traffic an issue? FA aside, the worthiness of a route is mostly uncorrelated with the amount of traffic it gets |
David Tysingerwrote: If it is chossy and if you are a beginner and you might fall, yes. More. We want more. We deserve more. |
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whoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo cares |
