Recent bolting at Wisconsin crags

Garrett Hopkinswrote:

.... I fondly remember some of my first leads at the Lake basically being “climb to safety”.... People don’t learn to climb like that anymore....

That's overly broad.  There are still plenty of people who value climbing as exploration and adventure, and don't reduce it's value to gymnastics.  They still learn to climb with the idea that judging and devising your own safety is an essential part of climbing.

Garrett Hopkinswrote:

.... The addition of routes that are easily accessible does not [necessarily] remove the opportunity to climb an old school route that was done with different tactics and is challenging in a different way.

I'd agree with this modification of what you wrote.  I think the problem that people often react to is this:  sometimes people who are blind to the broader world of climbing values remove/alter opportunities for new "old school" routes without apparently giving it much consideration.  For example, bolting next to perfectly good cracks.  If you climbed at Gibraltar Rock in the early 90s, there was a locally famous example there that stirred up at least as much discussion as we are seeing here (before MP and online data bases, I feel I have to point out).  This is not a new point of contention.

The route that kicked off this debate reminds me of Face Up to That Crack, that Kevin & Elissa & I debated while Kevin was bolting it in 1992(?). That wasn't the end of the world, either (although I advocated fewer bolts than it ended up with).

I find it ironic that folks from divergent values all warn those from other points of view that "what you do will lead to crags being closed".  On the one hand, "this is going to lead to grid bolting, which will bring unwanted attention, which will lead to a closure."  On the other hand, "even one accident will bring attention, which will lead to closure."

In the long run, we are going to need some way to resolve these debates when we disagree.  Because we are going to disagree at times, and we'd rather not have land managers making these decisions for us, as a rule. I think at some point in the next couple of decades local climbing organizations are going to be the best answer we have (as flawed as that inevitably will be). If you care about this stuff, I'd suggest you support and get involved in the LCO associated with your favorite climbing area(s).

Garrett Hopkinswrote:

I really don’t see much else that could be added to this thread, but it does seem like every person who’s posted an angry comment on here no longer lives in Wisconsin. Relatively speaking, I haven’t climbed in the area that long. Only since 2014, but I’ve noticed huge changes since then. More people are climbing and I think it’s ok to make additions to areas that allow people to do the sport safely. I fondly remember some of my first leads at the Lake basically being “climb to safety”. I was fortunate to have a good mentor who pushed me in the right direction. People don’t learn to climb like that anymore. And an injury at one of these satellite crags is the quickest way to get them closed in my opinion. The addition of routes that are easily accessible does not remove the opportunity to climb an old school route that was done with different tactics and is challenging in a different way. Climbing is great and it makes me happy that our small scene in Wisconsin is growing. 

More bolts doesn't prevent accidents, only top ropes prevent accidents...except for that one time.

Tradibanwrote:

More bolts doesn't prevent accidents, only top ropes prevent accidents...except for that one time.

Maaaaaannnn all these Wisconsinites are just a bunch of topropers 

Garrett Hopkinswrote:

Maaaaaannnn all these Wisconsinites are just a bunch of topropers 

yup.  lame state.  go elsewhere please

"The times they are a-changin' - Bob Dylan

"No bolts IN WI (except maybe Willow?) are placed with land managers permission because they aren't giving it. That's the problem with adding more bolts, it attracts attention to an illicit activity. "

When I figure out what is wrong with that statement, I'll let ya know.

I have not read the whole of Aarons giant post (so forgive me if I side with him does not mean I've read that whole paragraph)

I was there one of the weekends he was bolting and the line that went up is pretty damn good, and a slightly trickier version of the adjacent Riverboat Gambler, as well as an easy alternate. Literally prior to being surprised to find someone bolting lines there, I was begrudgingly making my way to take my friends to Riverboat, as they had never climbed it but knew I'd be in for a day wasted waiting around others or having another party up my ass. The 5.8 I have not tried, but I hear it gives TR access to Riverboat for beginners. This post is in favor of the routes, without trying to step on the toes or disrespect the OG climbers who went out and found a lot of these areas or established them years back.

I would also disagree with @Tradiban's point that crowding just means "everyone should wait". Aaron made a good point that day to me, if you look at MP we have established like 10:1 trad to sport climb ratio in Wisconsin, someone seeking to put up more sport is doing everyone a favor as long as they don't jeopardize access like has been stated in this thread. But my point is, we need to match our climbing areas a but to the new swarms of climbers going there to protect them from crowding, beginners getting messed up on routes they didn't know they were getting into, etc to preserve the climbing experience for everyone, and to prevent accidents from new climbers closing areas. The crags can't continue to be only outfitted to the select few who put up 10+ trad lines with ease. The most popular crags don't have enough moderate climbs, but if someone is willing to put in the time to find, and safely establish some that is a good thing as long as it doesnt jeapordize access. I am not sure of access details, but maybe the conversation with land managers about bolts needs to be revisited. We have valid arguments and times may have changes since the last time the park "forbid" bolts:

Every year, gyms, REI, climbing groups all partake in the growth of climbing with Anchor Courses, Gym to Crag, etc and birth new outdoor climbers. What I would worry about more is accidents from new climbers getting on sketchy lead routes or whatever. We have to kinda baby-proof some of these, or at least address this for the popular crags and climbs which is what the bolting person is doing.

Additionally, I don't mean to step on the toes of those working on access at other areas and derail the discussion a bit, and am sure there are nuances of bureaucracy or state management plans slowing things down, but it would be nice to "speed up" efforts to open up Ableman's, get Gibraltar open, etc. I've only got about 5 years in the climbing game and these have been off the table in that time, it would be nice to get them "back". I don't like being an "armchair QB" on this one, and have expressed interest in the past to help with access however to these, but am probably too far by Chicago area to be of use for meetings, or access discussions and am probably only good for some "crag cleanup" days, etc.

TLDR: Reading this thread, I see the points of some of the original route establishing folks, but we are not in-line with our thinking of what is going in on climbing, and the growth of the sport, and the number of members as a whole.

Mike Bliszwrote:

I have not read the whole of Aarons giant post (so forgive me if I side with him does not mean I've read that whole paragraph)

I was there one of the weekends he was bolting and the line that went up is pretty damn good, and a slightly trickier version of the adjacent Riverboat Gambler, as well as an easy alternate. Literally prior to being surprised to find someone bolting lines there, I was begrudgingly making my way to take my friends to Riverboat, as they had never climbed it but knew I'd be in for a day wasted waiting around others or having another party up my ass. The 5.8 I have not tried, but I hear it gives TR access to Riverboat for beginners. This post is in favor of the routes, without trying to step on the toes or disrespect the OG climbers who went out and found a lot of these areas or established them years back.

I would also disagree with @Tradiban's point that crowding just means "everyone should wait". Aaron made a good point that day to me, if you look at MP we have established like 10:1 trad to sport climb ratio in Wisconsin, someone seeking to put up more sport is doing everyone a favor as long as they don't jeopardize access like has been stated in this thread. But my point is, we need to match our climbing areas a but to the new swarms of climbers going there to protect them from crowding, beginners getting messed up on routes they didn't know they were getting into, etc to preserve the climbing experience for everyone, and to prevent accidents from new climbers closing areas. The crags can't continue to be only outfitted to the select few who put up 10+ trad lines with ease. The most popular crags don't have enough moderate climbs, but if someone is willing to put in the time to find, and safely establish some that is a good thing as long as it doesnt jeapordize access. I am not sure of access details, but maybe the conversation with land managers about bolts needs to be revisited. We have valid arguments and times may have changes since the last time the park "forbid" bolts:

Every year, gyms, REI, climbing groups all partake in the growth of climbing with Anchor Courses, Gym to Crag, etc and birth new outdoor climbers. What I would worry about more is accidents from new climbers getting on sketchy lead routes or whatever. We have to kinda baby-proof some of these, or at least address this for the popular crags and climbs which is what the bolting person is doing.

Additionally, I don't mean to step on the toes of those working on access at other areas and derail the discussion a bit, and am sure there are nuances of bureaucracy or state management plans slowing things down, but it would be nice to "speed up" efforts to open up Ableman's, get Gibraltar open, etc. I've only got about 5 years in the climbing game and these have been off the table in that time, it would be nice to get them "back". I don't like being an "armchair QB" on this one, and have expressed interest in the past to help with access however to these, but am probably too far by Chicago area to be of use for meetings, or access discussions and am probably only good for some "crag cleanup" days, etc.

TLDR: Reading this thread, I see the points of some of the original route establishing folks, but we are not in-line with our thinking of what is going in on climbing, and the growth of the sport, and the number of members as a whole.

You can't bolt your way to safety, people still make mistakes. The lack of "beginner" routes keeps those unqualified from going outside or at least allowing those who are qualified to put up TRs for them.

In general outside isn't a gym, stop treating it that way.

I'm more speaking for the perspective of more moderate or accessible sport routes available, not adding bolts to existing routes or making routes "gym like" Which is what the person bolting is doing. Their spacing was fine on the 10c and still a heady move or two, consistent with the rest of the climbs at Necedah at that grade.
We all came from somewhere, you're gatekeeping people from learning by enshrining places like Necedah as if they are supposed to be some "serious" outdoor routes when it's clearly functions better as an easy-access, easy climbing crag.

I think this whole "gatekeeping" and "lack of beginner routes" argument is a bit overstated. People act as if there isn't moderate sport climbing accessible in the Midwest. In Wisconsin alone, there are 63 sport routes 5.10a and under. Jackson Falls has 120 routes 5.10a or easier. Minnesota and Iowa have a combined 182 routes moderate sport routes. Not to mention all of the climbing available in the Red River Gorge and elsewhere. The reality of rock climbing in the Midwest is sometimes you have to load up your car and drive 4+ hours to climb. That is part of the fun. 

That doesn't mean that, we, as a community, shouldn't work toward opening additional access or developing new routes. However, a mindful approach to bolting and route development in general should be applied. Bolting for bolting sake isn't going to fix anything. Bolting choss and failing to properly equip anchors is unsafe. Squeezing established lines or bolting potential trad routes is poor form. I hope future route developers in the region are open to mentorship and think things through before drilling. 

Mike Bliszwrote:

I'm more speaking for the perspective of more moderate or accessible sport routes available, not adding bolts to existing routes or making routes "gym like" Which is what the person bolting is doing. Their spacing was fine on the 10c and still a heady move or two, consistent with the rest of the climbs at Necedah at that grade.
We all came from somewhere, you're gatekeeping people from learning by enshrining places like Necedah as if they are supposed to be some "serious" outdoor routes when it's clearly functions better as an easy-access, easy climbing crag.

"A heady move or two" is contradictory to your argument that bolting makes more safe routes.

If there's a great "easy" route to bolt, by all means do it, but I'm seeing squeeze job choss bolting, which only gymifies the crag and gets noobs into dangerous territory. 

Like I said before, if you must climb these faces, just top rope it.

Gatekeeping is a cop out word and just sounds Foxnewsy, how about just plain old use your f'in brain and don't be a dick? 

It is disappointing to hear that area land managers aren't more willing to work with climbers and allow for responsible route development that also protects the natural resource for all to enjoy. However, if you wish to engage in illicit climbing activity, don't spray about it, ever. It's beyond irresponsible to do so. Other climbers will take that attitude and follow in your footsteps. They do now. And they will feel justified in doing so because Tradi does it or defends it, or others do.

Climbers don't have special rules that allow them to bypass rules for public lands. Mountaineers poaching wildlife habitat don't get a pass because they're too cool for rules. Thieves of timber, rock art, pine cones, plants, whatever, don’t get a pass. Mountain bikers blazing new illicit trails don’t get a pass. Hunters poaching wildlife don’t get a pass. Just because poaching climbing walls seems to pale in comparison that doesn’t justify your activity. If it's truly illegal, your activities don’t help climbers. They are simply selfish expressions of entitlement. We have too much of that in America.

And, isn't it a little rich to say that say that you get to decide what the ethics are for a climbing area that is illegal to develop? It seems like recently too many sport climbers are dragging us backwards. You are setting a bad example.

As for setting easy sport routes, there are many issues to consider. Most are obvious and mentioned. I will only add as other have that it is sometimes nice to have a few easy sport routes for families to visit with the kids so that they can enjoy being outside while sport climbing, or just learning sport climbing. Obviously, it can also helpful to older climbers who wish to be outside. Some places are better than others. If someone wants to develop said routes and they aren’t leading to overcrowding, resource damage or screwing good lines for trad, sport, or top rope, then I really fail to see a reasonable objection if said lines are perfectly legal to develop. Get over your selfishness.

With more climbers coming into the sport, suggesting that illicit activities is somehow OK if it flies under the radar no longer cuts it. Times have changed. Seek legal access. Climbers need political clout and you get that from politicians. Skip the land managers who have no interest in working with you. Broaden your horizons. 

And clamp it about your illicit climbing. YOU set the example.

Skateboarding has a long and rich history of throwing up the middle finger to the man, it got to the point where towns didnt need a thousand signatures of support for a new skate park, many towns just did it to get them off the streets. Its now an Olympic sport similar to... sport climbing! Certainly being an Olympic sport makes it much easier to deal with the man now, definitely easier than just a few years ago. 

M Mwrote:

Skateboarding has a long and rich history of throwing up the middle finger to the man

Same with climbing, mountain biking, out-of-bounds skiing, etc.

The political calculus has changed with climbing. Times have changed. Get political support. 

And let's be honest, unlike skateboarding, these climbers have no desire to share their space with more people at their crag, aren't open to development for the greater community (beginners), and don't give a fuck about anyone except themselves. If history is any guide, they are probably doing resource damage and the last thing they want is oversight by "the man". The average teenager high on hormones is unlikely to be found at their crag with their buddies. 

Just irresponsible laziness to not to seek political support. And irresponsible to suggest that illicit development is OK, or to advertise it.

Teton Climberwrote:

Same with climbing, mountain biking, out-of-bounds skiing, etc.

The political calculus has changed with climbing. Times have changed. Get political support. 

And let's be honest, unlike skateboarding, these climbers have no desire to share their space with more people at their crag, aren't open to development for the greater community (beginners), and don't give a fuck about anyone except themselves. If history is any guide, they are probably doing resource damage and the last thing they want is oversight by "the man". Your average teenager high on hormones is unlikely to be found at their crag. 

Just irresponsible laziness to not to seek political support. And irresponsible to suggest that illicit development is OK, or to advertise it.

At a National Park maybe, but it doesn't work that way at some backwoods sandstone pile in Wisconsin.

It's unfair that many of us were born earlier and snagged all the lines worth doing, but that's life.

Teton Climberwrote:

Just irresponsible laziness to not to seek political support. And irresponsible to suggest that illicit development is OK, or to advertise it.

While I agree with the overall sentiment, your comments would be a little more meaningful if you had a clue what the local issues are and how discussions with land managers have proceeded over the last 30 years.  It's kind of hard to vociferously insist on vague generalities that may or may not be on the mark.

I appreciate your concern for our little climbing areas, though.

Doug Hemkenwrote:

While I agree with the overall sentiment, your comments would be a little more meaningful if you had a clue what the local issues are and how discussions with land managers have proceeded over the last 30 years.  It's kind of hard to vociferously insist on vague generalities that may or may not be on the mark.

I appreciate your concern for our little climbing areas, though. 

With the exploding popularity of climbing, having folks advertising their illicit activity as a normal course of business is not good for climbing no matter your local issues. Climbers elsewhere pick up your bad habits. Think beyond you local selfish issues.

How many times have you, Tradio and the greater community of climbers personally grabbed the kids and gone to meet with your elected reps to discuss how the sausage gets made and seek changes in the last 30 years?

Zero? 

One?

Put in the effort.

Or run for office, apply for public oversight boards, whatever. 

No matter the outcome, advertising illicit climbing activity or suggesting it is appropriate for any reason just perpetuates more of it far outside your local community.

Teton Climberwrote:

How many times have you personally grabbed the kids and gone to meet with your elected reps to discuss how the sausage gets made and seek changes in the last 30 years?

Zero? 

One?

Put in the effort.

You have no idea ... and I can't begin to count the times.

Nice sneer, though.

Doug Hemkenwrote:

You have no idea ... and I can't begin to count the times.

Nice sneer, though.

If everyone hates you and doesn't support you, maybe what you're doing is wrong.

Either way, stop spraying about your illicit developments. You know exactly how stupid that is. You're an admin. Get a clue.