Totem cams are ruining climbing.

When "safer" belay devices (assist locking) were introduced, people became more sloppy with their belaying and there are actually more accidents these days. 

With "improved" cams (totems), people will not place them as diligently as with old gear, so we will see more accidents. Overblownup gumbies with triple rack of totems will get on routes they are not prepared for as evident in all the rescues these days. 

"Feeling" safer is most often not the same as being safer.

Jake Joneswrote:

Ok, sure.  Maybe.  With the stipulation this may be a troll... which OMG I RESPONDED TO A TROLL PLEASE EVERYONE LET ME KNOW IN THE COMMENTS!!! notwithstanding, it's not a convincing argument.  This luddistic argument has seen many iterations spanning several decades, and unless we're talking about the very first time it was made, which is the only time it ever may have been worth considering, it has been made numerous times since then.  So unless you're up there in hobnail boots and a help rope putting more piton scars in, or naked free soloing, I'm not sure your claim has any merit.

1955 from ultra old school alpinists:  "Kernmantle ropes are ruining climbing."

Early 80s/Late 70s:  "Sticky rubber AND bolts AND cams (ironically your claim of Totems is merely a subclaim of this one) are ruining climbing."

Also, I'll let you in on a couple secrets:  Totems can pull in extremely poor placements, and in friable rock, and well placed cams in solid rock don't.  If your argument hinges on good placements vs. bad ones, then it's not a good argument.  If your argument hinges on the availability of placements vs. runouts, then that's not an argument about cams, it's an argument about routes.

Well put!

But my gear is not dicey.

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

The glorification of risk is way overdone.  Face it, you just want to be able to brag to your non climbing friends how gnar and badass you are when in reality unless you just really suck and placing pro climbing is no more dangerous than lawn darts.

This is a simple minded view. Fact is, ego doesn’t mean shit when you think you’re about to die. It’s only after the fact that you get any bragging rights.
Climbing bold is a testament to ones confidence in their abilities. Those who climb bold without that element, are quickly made fools. Likewise, you can be the best at placing incipient gear. But that hardly matters if there is none to be placed.
There’s as fine a line between boldness and stupidity, as there is prudence and cowardice. Truer words have never been spoken. 

Patrikwrote:

When "safer" belay devices (assist locking) were introduced, people became more sloppy with their belaying and there are actually more accidents these days. 

With "improved" cams (totems), people will not place them as diligently as with old gear, so we will see more accidents. Overblownup gumbies with triple rack of totems will get on routes they are not prepared for as evident in all the rescues these days. 

"Feeling" safer is most often not the same as being safer.

Maybe true. The thing is however that Totems are so good that even a beginner in over his head can throw one in blindly and it has a very good chance of holding. But I guess you could say that for experience climbers, Totems will ruin climbing because they reduce risk. For beginner climbers, Totems will ruin climbing by increasing stupid risk taking, which is antithetical to climbing. 

Rocrateswrote:

Maybe true. The thing is however that Totems are so good that even a beginner in over his head can throw one in blindly and it has a very good chance of holding. But I guess you could say that for experience climbers, Totems will ruin climbing because they reduce risk. For beginner climbers, Totems will ruin climbing by increasing stupid risk taking, which is antithetical to climbing. 

The thing is however that Friends are so good that even a beginner in over his head can throw one in blindly and it has a very good chance of holding. 

The thing is however that nuts are so good that even a beginner in over his head can throw one in blindly and it has a very good chance of holding. 

The thing is however that pitons are so good that even a beginner in over his head can throw one in blindly and it has a very good chance of holding. 

Dude. Stop digging the hole you're in even deeper.

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

My pants are shrinking.

Rocrateswrote:

Maybe true. The thing is however that Totems are so good that even a beginner in over his head can throw one in blindly and it has a very good chance of holding. But I guess you could say that for experience climbers, Totems will ruin climbing because they reduce risk. For beginner climbers, Totems will ruin climbing by increasing stupid risk taking, which is antithetical to climbing. 

I don't think beginning climbers are more likely to be risky with Totem cams than without.  Gumbies are gunna gumby.  That said, I haven't combed through the AAC accident reports to find incidents caused by Totems failing... Also, if an overabundance of caution and safety is antithetical to climbing, and stupid risk taking is antithetical to climbing, what is thetical to climbing?

Totems are w---- privilege.

Jay Wongwrote:

Totems are w---- privilege.

Then why is the best one black?

I miss lawn darts.  

F r i t zwrote:

Then why is the best one black?

Because some privileged MPers enjoy have the smallest most teenie weenie one.

And being proud of it.

El Duderinowrote:

Also, if an overabundance of caution and safety is antithetical to climbing, and stupid risk taking is antithetical to climbing, what is thetical to climbing?

An overabundance of safety is antithetical, not necessarily caution. One can be relatively cautious but still climb bold routes (This might sound ridiculous, but proper preparation can make a bold route reasonable while still risky). 

To make a long story short, well-understood risk taking is thetical to climbing. Too much safety destroys the risk aspect, too much stupidity destroys the well-understood aspect. Totems are related to the safety aspect.

Actually...

Mountain Project is Ruining Climbing

Gumby Kingwrote:

Actually...

Mountain Project is Ruining Climbing

Actually, Instagram is ruining climbing. #tagresponsiblykeepthewestwild

Alex Z wrote:

I have one small data point to contribute. At Pembroke I saw a guy in the aftermath of a big fall where his cam had ripped. His foot was massively swollen and probably broken. When he said it was a green Totem, my initial reaction was: “this has shaken the foundations of my most deeply held beliefs.” But he conceded that he was very pumped and had placed it blindly. 

Thanks for sharing! Difficult to speculate, but I wonder if he would have thrown that piece in blindly if it was a C4 or nut. Probably, but with the added fear he may have been able to crank through the tough spot. 

Jay Wongwrote:

Totems are w---- privilege.

I agree, al you gueros, feel free to send your totems to this cholo right here eyyy

So Friends, sticky rubber, modern ropes aren't revolutionary enough to ruin climbing? It's just Totems? This thread is ridiculous.

Put your money where your mouth is, sell your rack and climb purely on stoppers for the next few years. 

Scrotems-‘they help you sack up’