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Failure Modes You Don't Believe In?
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Failure of a locking carabiner on a belay device due to cross loading. There seems to be a trend in carabiner design to prevent this from happening, and I must admit that I bought a fancy (and heavy) DMM locker that is essentially cross-load-proof. I understand that the strength is “only” 7-9kn along the minor axis, but perhaps if there isn’t a single documented example of this type of failure, then it’s a solution in search of a problem. Does anyone have an example of this actually happening? |
Ross Exlerwrote: Yes. This happened to Tom Randall of all people! He was rope soloing with a grigri and he fell. The carabiner connecting him to the grigri crossloaded and broke, and he was saved by his backup knot. He took a big fall though and had to get rescued. http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13200305300/Fall-on-Rock-Inadequate-Protection-Inadequate-Clothing-and-Equipment-Weather?fbclid=IwAR1loQye50n5FMGYqx57zUWzUCJZ_uJ2nfBOw1VHZ7c2ke1QxZE78i6N2k0 |
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Yikes! Not exactly the same, as he took a factor 2 while rope soloing (I’m talking about it happening with a partner belaying the leader, although I guess if the leader takes a factor 2 onto a cross loaded belay locker it’s the same thing), but good enough for me. I’ll use my fancy belay locker! Thanks for posting. |
Alex Fischerwrote: Lol, not that Tom Randall. Different guy same name, Tom hadn't even been to yosemite at that point. Edit: Tom and Pete first went to yosemite in 2014 and freed 3 big walls the first time they were there. Tom has talked about how he was terrified a lot of the time and hated the exposure. |
that guy named sebwrote: Oh, for some reason I thought it was the Tom Randall |
Ross Exlerwrote: The anti cross load biners are so the belay device doesn't get caught at a bad angle or in a position where it can unclip itself. Biners are still plenty strong crossloaded for normal climbing. |
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Some good testing of Grigri slipping in a couple YouTube videos - - Hard is Easy - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKe72j_mBlU - Ryan Jenks (How Not2) - youtube.com/watch?v=UjYLsya…;t=774s Maybe not quite as relevant but worth watching. I've personally seen it slip in real world situations where you are using a thinner diameter rope and there's not a hard/quick pull on the rope. If your belayer is slacking (and not holding the rope), it could generate enough slip that you land on a shelf or the ground. Not likely to result in a serious injury but pretty avoidable if you hold the rope. I think rope slippage is more of an issue when there's a lot of rope in the system and a lot of friction/rope drag. For example, a wandering slab route could create this issue. I know what you're thinking, it's hard to hold the rope when you're talking on the phone and drinking a beer at the same time. If that's your style, just tie an ADK (anti-death knot) a couple feet behind the grigri. Or better yet, climb with people that care as much about your life as they do their own. |
that guy named sebwrote: Are you sure about this? I guess there could be 2 British Tom Randall climbers the same age, but it sure looks like him in this 2007 trip report:  |
Austin Donisanwrote: That's really weird. I initially thought it was him when I read it years ago but I kept seeing interview after interview about Tom and Pete talking about yosemite and everything around it and he really really made it sound like he'd never been there before, I'm pretty sure he even says in the video about Pete soloing free rider he didn't enjoy climbing in yosemite specifically because of the exposure. So the idea of him doing a huge solo seemed less and less likely, wrote it off completely. But yeah maybe it is the Tom Randall. |
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Yeah, I thought I remembered an interview where one of the Wide Boyz biner broke while rope soloing. I thought it was Pete, but I guess it was Tom. I have been scared on more than one visit to Yosemite. It is allowed. |
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from a practical/logistical point of view - imagine rapping a prince of darkness with a single bolt with one ring at each anchor. sounds about as much fun as a slumber party in san quentin. |
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I rapped Prince of Darkness in 1986 . there were three 1/4 inch split shaft studs at each rappel. I was so green I didn't even know that those things were sketchy in sandstone .. |
Nick Goldsmithwrote: About the same time we climbed epinephrine. When I got near one of the anchors the leaders said look at this and pulled both bolts out of the rock, showed them to me and put them back in. I asked if he had something else in and he said he had a couple of nuts the crack behind him. Two bolts with a sliding x held out for your inspection is not a sight you forget. Maybe what we considered safe enough is those days was not. |
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None if the bolts I’ve placed have failed that I know of. I did have one pull out on a route in Rifle, not my route. I have had a few bolts that I’ve had to remove when they wouldn’t tighten. |
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Climber pat. That same trip we climbed Triasic Sands and the top anchor was two of those really tiny studs with no nuts on the ends. Just sport tape wrapped around the threads holding the hangers on... |
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What about clipping a biner on top of your ascenders because they “might come off the rope“ on a perfectly vertical rope? |
Mark Hudonwrote: I would do it if given the chance. |
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that same trip in 86 we did this super scary thing in Zion where one of the belays/ rap stations was drilled angles rigged with a death triangle and the pins were so loose you could take them out of the holes and stick em back in.... |
Ross Exlerwrote: I used to have a paper/article describing the deaths of two (iirc) people in rapelling accidents. I believe they had lockers, figure 8's, and the carabiners were through their tie-in points. IIRC they think the combination of the tie-in points resistance to allowing the carabiner to orient correctly and the leverage if the rigid figure 8 in the gate broke it. Maybe rgold or someone has a copy of this article somewhere. My general takeaway was to use the belay loop and always try to hold my hands / the device in a manner that keeps the device oriented, or at least not "kinked". |
slimwrote: One of the reasons I've heard for putting carabiners only on the belay loop is to avoid tri-loading. Honestly I dont think there is a single anecdotal failure mode I dont respect. The reason I like reading accident reports is I can make myself and my partners safer for knowing more failure modes, and understanding how quickly shit hits the fan. |
