Tag line v twin ropes system

Erik Strand wrote:

Anyone ever tried using arborist throw line as a tag line? It’s 1.75mm Dynema rated for like 600pounds. We use it all the time at work to set lines in trees, which is pretty much the reverse process of rappelling and using a tag line to retrieve your rope. The 600 pound limit seems to be quite a modest number as I’ve pulled on them with five people and didn’t break the line.

Sounds very painful on the hands when pulling. Especially if there's a stuck line.

Erik Strand wrote:

Anyone ever tried using arborist throw line as a tag line? It’s 1.75mm Dynema rated for like 600pounds. We use it all the time at work to set lines in trees, which is pretty much the reverse process of rappelling and using a tag line to retrieve your rope. The 600 pound limit seems to be quite a modest number as I’ve pulled on them with five people and didn’t break the line.

My first thought is that the consequence of a broken throw line in your line of work means going and getting another where as the consequence in climbing means you may be stuck high off the ground.

My second thought is that while there is surely abrasion over the tree limbs, I wonder how it compares to rock in a long term test. 

Alex Fletcher wrote:

My first thought is that the consequence of a broken throw line in your line of work means going and getting another where as the consequence in climbing means you may be stuck high off the ground.

My second thought is that while there is surely abrasion over the tree limbs, I wonder how it compares to rock in a long term test. 

I have broken a few of them, but they're usually very abused by that point and we are obviously pushing the breaking limit. I did break a new one about two months ago by "flossing" it on a piece of deadwood 60ft up a pine tree that I just really didn't feel like climbing to go get it. I threw it over the broken limb, but it was also on a live limb, so I tried to wiggle it off. I guess I sawed through my line in about 2-3 minutes of effort. Nobody on my crew had ever seen someone saw through their throwline like that before lol. I do agree that a broken one would be very bad if it left you stranded high on a route, but I think it could have good potential for 1 or 2 pitch crags.

I actually find tree work to be much harder on ropes than rock climbing is, except for the rare occurrence of a potential sharp ledge or people who regularly take whippers. We typically change our climbing line multiple times a year.

My main concern is that it weighs so little I think that wind would easily cause it to get stuck on things, and then the potential to break it starts to happen.

You can pull them with a biner attached to a slipknot for better grip. That would be quite annoying to have to repeat over and over, though. 

Used thin cord for bear hangs. Super munter/munter on carabiner or stick works for pulling and sliding up rope.

Can’t imagine the tangle with more than 20 meters of cord tho.

https://youtu.be/jFyu8rgRHAQ

Only the beginning minute or so of the video is relevant to throw line storage, but this shows pretty well how we keep 220+ft of it from tangling on us.

Throw cubes fold up rather small and could be clipped to the back of your harness that way. They also have even smaller storages that's basically just a big chalk bag, but getting the line into them is annoying so I don't bother with them at work where space/storage is not a problem.

I find that the munter hitch is not adequate when I am fighting significant resistance. If a stick is nearby, I usually opt to put like 5 wraps on a stick, and then go over the wraps to create a "brake". Then I just undo the brake and slide the rope up to where I can pull again. Might be hard to find a stick on a wall, though. 

rgold wrote:

The 9.5 + tag line will be probably be heavier---see example below,  but the differences can be insignificant.  If you go for pretty lightweight setups,  say Mammut Twilight twins, 7.5mm, 10 lbs for two 60m ropes, compared to Mammut Serenity single, 8.7mm  6.7 lbs for 60m, and (super pricey!) Petzl Pur Line, 6mm, 2.9 lbs for 65 m (extra 5 m needed to account for rope stretch in main line) so total 9.6 lbs.  The lightweight single and fancy tag line save you 4 ounces.  If you keep the super fancy tag line but go to the 9.7mm Bluewater Lightning Pro, then you add 1.2 lbs over the Mammut Serenity and then the twins win, being 18 oz lighter.

Dunno about other rope-tag line combinations, but this cursory look suggests that the weight advantages either way are minimal and, I would say, not enough to be decisive. The decision should be made on the advantages and disadvantages of the anticipated usage.

I guess I should read more into the advantages/disadvantages of use between the two. Have you ever used a tag line set up when you could’ve gone with twins or vice versa? If so can you share your thought process or assessment for what you chose? If you haven’t I guess what would you think would be the main scenario where one system would advantageous over another.

Aside from more significant weight savings if you could find such a set up comapred to twins, I’d think the obvious advantage to a tagline system would be that you’re only managing one route through the climb and with twins the obvious advantage to me would be on ice routes for faster  rappels and a back up rope if one were to be cut or sliced from an ice axe accidentally albeit unlikely.

Ray Lovpal wrote:

Question is as the subject implies. I am wondering if purchasing a tag line is worth it and worth my wife freaking out if she finds I bought another rope (I’m up to 5 now). Traditional set up for ice has been tope rope set ups and lowering down to climb up out then rope has been just a single as well. I’ve purchased twins ropes for backcountry ice now but never though about using a tag line for alpine rock which would make sense if needing to get down quickly but still noting needing a full climbing rated rope.

What’s your expeience with tag lines? Are they worth the cost and bringing them? What’re some of the best tag lines or does it matter since you don’t climb on them? Are tag lines typically static or dynamic? Do you get these anywhere like from REI or back country etc…

would it be better to sip a tag line and just use my twin rope set up I purchased for ice now all year as it’s still pretty light 

You can do so much more with a second rope in the system than a janky tag line. It's worth a little extra weight.

Overall I personally feel like the taglines are nice but only in a narrow selection of routes.  For me the criteria is:

- Alpine rock
- I need 2 ropes to descend
- The route doesn't wander all over the place
- The route is steep enough to haul
- The climbing is 5.10 or harder where I don't want to climb with a pack

Any other scenario I prefer a double rope system.

My go to tag line is the Esprit APER (Alpine Personal Escape Rope).  It is very durable, hauls great, rappels similar when paired with a larger dynamic rope because of its stiffness, and doesn't tangle as bad as a cordelette.

If you use your ice  lines  for rock they will  lose their  water proofing.  

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

If you use your ice  lines  for rock they will  lose their  water proofing.  

Yes that is another concern as well which brings a different element into the mix and another separate rope system I’ll need to get to keep the ice routes separate from dedicated  rock ropes to increase longevity. Seems like a twin system is coming out n on top s as the preferred method over a tag line given the added versatility and marginal weight savings a tad line provides

rgold wrote:

Some cutting-edge alpinists are tag-line fans.  Read https://www.colinhaley.com/nugget-1-the-petzl-purline/ for the most authoritative beta. In my opinion, if you are not a cutting-edge alpinist, if you don't intend to haul a pack or jumar a pitch or simulclimb, and aren't joined at the hip to a Grigri, then a pair of twin ropes---or in some cases half ropes, which are getting thinner and lighter too---seems to me to be more versatile and with a greater safety margin.

Thanks for sharing this link!

Double/twin ropes offer the advantage of an increased safety margin in case of rockfall or a fall with the rope running over a sharp edge