New and Experienced Climbers Over 50 #18

Kenneth Campbell wrote:

I’d be interested in hearing the blow by blow account. You know,  learning experience. 

So, here goes. It was a grade 18, mixed, with two bolts. First bolt was a fair way up, 7 metres and about 3.5 metres from a ledge. Easy scramble to the ledge. From there some tough moves to the first option for gear placement. I placed a small cam (DMM 00) and two wires (4 wild country rock and one other small rock). I then made a move and reached up to place a very small wire (size 1) in a slot. From there, some stout moves up to the first bolt. I was below the first bolt ALMOST within reach when I felt I couldn't clip it.started to panic a little. Decided to down climb. Decided (unwisely) to grab the number one wire. It pulled out and I fell. The cam held. I rotated as I fell and hit the rock with my back. My ankle hit something. Now I'm back at camp drinking a beer with ice on my ankle. 

Carl Schneiderwrote:

Well, first leader fall for me on trad gear today. Hurt my ankle but I'm alive and I have learnt some valuable lessons.

(a) don't self doubt, esp verbally

(b) don't place shit gear, and

(c) if you do place shit gear, don't pull on it.

I have a few take-aways from 35 years trad climbing, some of it at a high level.

(a) When things get intense there is no room for internal dialog. Get in your bubble and watch yourself do it.

(b) When placing gear never settle for second best.

(c) When protecting a crux, place more than one piece before the business if you can. So many times I've watch inexperienced trad leaders set a piece and then launch into a hard section. Then, partway through the difficulties they start thinking about that single piece and start mucking about with gear when they ought to be climbing. That ends one of three ways. Ideally they are able to pull it off despite having made it much more difficult. Or, they peel and the gear works. Pride hurt but that's it. Or, they peel and learn the hard way that backing up the pro before a crux is a good idea (if you can).

edit. I'm not saying you did any of these things specifically wrong, or being critical. I'm just throwing this out there for general purposes...  

Sounds like a perfect spot for a stick clip ;) 

Todd Berlier wrote:

i cant get this boulder problem i found and havent even tried any moves on out of my brain. the line is 15 feet of 30 degree overhanging dihedral face climbing to a 15 foot high 85 degree slab on what appears to be widely space sidepulls. itll be possible to add another 15 of traverse in a roof (i dont find that as appealing). itll need to be rapped first and ill work the top 15 feet on a rope for which im going to place a couple bolts. unfortunately the top does not make a TR rig safe without bolts. i was super stoked when i found it. i had flagged it on google maps about 3 years ago and 2 years ago had walked up to about 30 feet from the base on the south side and dismissed it as a featureless slab. then last spring i was scoping how to get to another area i was establishing (vids for Burden of Seams and Slippery Slope Fallacy posted last summer) and got a little lost and came out of the woods just above the north side of the boulder and saw the face i just described. i got so excited i bruised my knee and gave myself some nasty scrapes as i rushed to the base to check it out. i bought a hammer drill, bolts and hangers and was planning a september seige but then the caldor fire squelched that plan. the working name is colossus (i know im getting ahead of myself) as it is about 30 feet tall. 

Todd, that's what I'm talkin' about!  I love this!  So... Colossus is on your 2022 hit list?  

I don't know a soul who likes New Years' Resolutions or Goals. But I feel like, if you don't know where you want to go, how will you ever get there?  So, I take the whole last week of December, try to gather my thoughts, visualize the coming year, and put down some intentions as specifically and clearly as possible.  If I don't get there, that's fine.  At least I have a hope and a plan...

----------

With 2022 coming, I still feel so new to climbing, it's strange to say.  I try to forgive myself for the focus and long learning curve I'm experiencing in climbing.   But it's not a bowling league, as I keep telling Tony.  (Whenever I come home defeated he always reminds me "You can always join the bowling league at Yucca Valley Bowl!")  So, all the support and assistance along the way, big and small, mean so much.  Carl, your experience is instructive.  

I'm just trying to pick off one or two small items at a time to practice on rock.  I have become focused on breath while I climb.  In fact, even when I'm not climbing.  Those Whoop numbers really give good feedback... no more way accelerated heart rate, no low oxygen readings.  So, for the conversations we've had on focused breathwork on rock, what a difference this has made to me, and thank you!

On my last outing I decided to focus on committing to a foot placement without hesitation--and also keeping my vision on my foot until it's firmly placed, and only then looking away. (Funny... a pool-pro made a similar comment... keep your eye on the ball until you have hit it... don't jerk your head away at the last second.)   Bob said "Once you've placed your foot you might as well stand on it, it will either fail or hold... no point tapping around."  So, on a pretty steep face I focused on precise placement, and moving onto it.  No second thoughts.  I did not fall once.  Maybe after thousands of these movements I will really totally trust my feet.  

These are small things you don't have to think about when bowling!    

What Kris said.  "a) When things get intense there is no room for internal dialog. Get in your bubble and watch yourself do it. "  This is a big challenge for me, but probably at the heart of hard climbing.  

I have found that all I have to do is barely suggest to myself "This is too hard, I won't make it." is enough to cause a fall.  Just the briefest thought creates failure.  Conversely "I've got this. OF COURSE I can do it." (fake it til you make it?) is often enough to make the following moves successful.  

I've been asking myself what is the difference between a 5.10 climb and a 5.11.  (or the higher 5.10's.).  I'm thinking it must come down to the little things.  Strength, for sure, (a big thing), but thought control first and foremost--along with trust, technique.  And for me, disregarding the absurdity of these routes, the visual impossibility... and just moving onward and upward with confidence. It has to at least start with the thought "This can be done."  

THIS CAN BE DONE.     (even without a picnic table) 

So many pioneers on this thread who've shown up to lend a hand... we are very lucky.  

Did someone ask about 2022 plans?   

Lori- I always remind myself that “this climb has been done before… it’s 5.x.. I believe that the solution is there, my job is to find it..” 

Otherwise down climb back till your under the pro.

Carl- good job going for it! Have you ever aid climbed? It’s a fabulous way to really understand what good protection is. What you can trust and what is sketchy. IMHO the hardest stuff is rated 5.8 C3…. You free climb, place some questionable gear- then put your weight on it! That will teach you a lot. Hope your ankle gets better- keep applying iced drinks.

So happy Tony regained the feeling in his feet. It’s a start.

Goal for 2022 get to 2023!

Oh yea I forgot this one. Catch bigger trout, more Trout than Jan for one day! That dude always nails it! I will beat him!

Kenneth Campbell wrote:

Ah. Well tomorrow is another day. I’m climbing through you vicariously as it’s 2degrees f here. Thanks for that. 

The Boise forecast keeps changing. They really should just post some random numbers, admit they have no idea, and tell us to just live with it, lol!

It's now claiming -1 (low) for Friday. 39 (high) a few days later. We've bouldered at the latter temps, but not this time. Too much snow!

6+" of snow on the ground, but a glimpse of blue sky, so we'll see. Supposed to be 100% snow today. 

H.

Kristian Solemwrote:

I have a few take-aways from 35 years trad climbing, some of it at a high level.

(a) When things get intense there is no room for internal dialog. Get in your bubble and watch yourself do it.

(b) When placing gear never settle for second best.

(c) When protecting a crux, place more than one piece before the business if you can. So many times I've watch inexperienced trad leaders set a piece and then launch into a hard section. Then, partway through the difficulties they start thinking about that single piece and start mucking about with gear when they ought to be climbing. That ends one of three ways. Ideally they are able to pull it off despite having made it much more difficult. Or, they peel and the gear works. Pride hurt but that's it. Or, they peel and learn the hard way that backing up the pro before a crux is a good idea (if you can).

edit. I'm not saying you did any of these things specifically wrong, or being critical. I'm just throwing this out there for general purposes...  

All good points... 

After I retired from music production I trained for and worked as a Pilates teacher / physical therapy aide for several years beginning in 2007 (I still would be, but things conspired against me). During that time, I published a couple of articles including one for a publication called Pilates Style. My basic point had to do with progress during rehab or training. We experience periods of visible progress and plateaus. Periods of progress are exciting; we can get motivated and see light at the end of the tunnel. But the plateaus are tough. We feel like we’re getting nowhere, motivation is hard, and we don’t know when or even if it will end. “Is this the new normal?”

What we must do - and sometimes this takes professional guidance - is to set small but measurable goals. Take satisfaction in these miniscule improvements. Any forward movement is an achievement, no matter how small. The plateau does not mean you’re stuck, it means your body needs to catch up with itself.

I’ve been lousy at taking my own advice. In 2022 I will. This is my resolution.

(To be clear, a physical therapy aide is not an assistant PT. My role consisted, for the most part, of warming up and stretching with patients before their time with a PT, and to lead the patients through, and teach them, an exercise routine as prescribed by the PT. It was important that I understood what work was safe for people with different special conditions: hip replacements, ACL surgery, whatever. They hammered it into my head over and over again that any diagnosis or variance from my instructions was beyond the scope of my work.) 

Guy Keeseewrote:

.... remind myself that “this climb has been done before… it’s 5.x.. I believe that the solution is there, my job is to find it..”
Otherwise down climb back till your under the pro.

I adhere to this approach too.
These days, I take pride in equal parts solving the puzzle (ideally with zero chalk offering hints) and having the stamina plus strength to pull off the onsight.  Even moderates can be rather thought provoking, especially slabs and thin faces.

Kristian Solemwrote:

After I retired from music production I trained for and worked as a Pilates teacher / physical therapy aide for several years beginning in 2007 (I still would be, but things conspired against me). During that time, I published a couple of articles including one for a publication called Pilates Style. My basic point had to do with progress during rehab or training. We experience periods of visible progress and plateaus. Periods of progress are exciting; we can get motivated and see light at the end of the tunnel. But the plateaus are tough. We feel like we’re getting nowhere, motivation is hard, and we don’t know when or even if it will end. “Is this the new normal?”

What we must do - and sometimes this takes professional guidance - is to set small but measurable goals. Take satisfaction in these miniscule improvements. Any forward movement is an achievement, no matter how small. The plateau does not mean you’re stuck, it means your body needs to catch up with itself.

I’ve been lousy at taking my own advice. In 2022 I will. This is my resolution.

(To be clear, a physical therapy aide is not an assistant PT. My role consisted, for the most part, of warming up and stretching with patients before their time with a PT, and to lead the patients through, and teach them, an exercise routine as prescribed by the PT. It was important that I understood what work was safe for people with different special conditions: hip replacements, ACL surgery, whatever. They hammered it into my head over and over again that any diagnosis or variance from my instructions was beyond the scope of my work.) 

Allrighty....I have a couple gripes with my several rounds of pt in recent years.

Because you are quite correct, it is easy to not see any progress, and lose motivation? Please, PT professionals???

Make whatever you assign me something that will also have a way to measure progress. A number. Get that at the start, and make it easy to get it later.

It's 2022. This stuff should be trackable online. It's frustrating to want to do that, and have pencil and paper as the option you're given.

There are research papers out there documenting compliance with what you are assigning me. 

Helping me stay motivated tops the list.

Remember, too? You know this stuff, how to be fit, all of that. I don't. 

This frustration extended to the other pt I spent money on, also. A trainer, a couple years back. My single, overarching, goal was to get that starting assessment, measurable numbers, make some measurable progress, and, ultimately, learn to workout on my own. 11 expensive weeks. And it didn't happen. 

Rant over.

For now, lol!

I'm considering hiring a personal trainer in 2022 though, so.....

@Carl, heal up!!! Oops on the pun. Get better fast, eh?

@Guy, Idaho gots some fishies. Jussst sayin.

Best, H.

Isa is a beat up from her booster so i called an Old friend for belay duty. ran up 20 below Zero Gully 4+ with Grammy. really fun climbing.  

P2 was extra steep today

left a treat at the top

 My friend Ira was on the climb next to us with his friend Ben

Old lady Hwrote:

Allrighty....I have a couple gripes with my several rounds of pt in recent years.

Because you are quite correct, it is easy to not see any progress, and lose motivation? Please, PT professionals???

Make whatever you assign me something that will also have a way to measure progress. A number. Get that at the start, and make it easy to get it later.

It's 2022. This stuff should be trackable online. It's frustrating to want to do that, and have pencil and paper as the option you're given.

There are research papers out there documenting compliance with what you are assigning me. 

Helping me stay motivated tops the list.

Remember, too? You know this stuff, how to be fit, all of that. I don't. 

This frustration extended to the other pt I spent money on, also. A trainer, a couple years back. My single, overarching, goal was to get that starting assessment, measurable numbers, make some measurable progress, and, ultimately, learn to workout on my own. 11 expensive weeks. And it didn't happen. 

Rant over.

For now, lol!

I'm considering hiring a personal trainer in 2022 though, so.....

@Carl, heal up!!! Oops on the pun. Get better fast, eh?

@Guy, Idaho gots some fishies. Jussst sayin.

Best, H.

I agree. Personal trainer in 2022 sounds great. But I decided to close out 2021 in my pajamas. Nick and Isa make me tired. I have decided to eat popcorn and chocolate with Tony and watch reruns of bad movies until the clock strikes midnight… is it tomorrow?

Also, I’m trying to find good footage of John Bachar as long as I’m roughing it on the couch for some days.  I look at it this way… the more pitiful the end-of-2021 pictures look, the better 2022 pics will be. Progress already!

Helen. Are you eating cheesecake?  care to post real pictures of yourself  coasting to the end of 2021?  Anyone?

Old lady Hwrote:

Allrighty....I have a couple gripes with my several rounds of pt in recent years.

Because you are quite correct, it is easy to not see any progress, and lose motivation? Please, PT professionals???

Make whatever you assign me something that will also have a way to measure progress. A number. Get that at the start, and make it easy to get it later.

It's 2022. This stuff should be trackable online. It's frustrating to want to do that, and have pencil and paper as the option you're given.

There are research papers out there documenting compliance with what you are assigning me. 

Helping me stay motivated tops the list.

Remember, too? You know this stuff, how to be fit, all of that. I don't. 

This frustration extended to the other pt I spent money on, also. A trainer, a couple years back. My single, overarching, goal was to get that starting assessment, measurable numbers, make some measurable progress, and, ultimately, learn to workout on my own. 11 expensive weeks. And it didn't happen. 

Rant over.

For now, lol!

I'm considering hiring a personal trainer in 2022 though, so.....

@Carl, heal up!!! Oops on the pun. Get better fast, eh?

@Guy, Idaho gots some fishies. Jussst sayin.

Best, H.

I hear you. Some of this stuff you have to do on your own. Get the PT to teach you an exercise. Badger them about form. It's crucial. Don't let them be casual. Most PT's will mirror your intensity and level of interest. If they don't, take a walk.

Working on your own, time is a great metric for measuring progress. It's concrete, not subjective at all. Since most PT exercises tend to involve repetitions, how long it takes to do a set in perfect form can be a measurement of progress. Master the form before you even think about going faster. Sacrificing form to go faster is not progress. Take the standard rotator cuff drill as an example. Is your shoulder creeping up toward your ear? Is your elbow moving away from your side? Are you standing in a wide "A-Frame" stance, or are your feet together? (much better core engagement). Is your neck tense? (relax your tongue and your neck will follow). Are both sides equally good? The weak side sets the pace and resistance for both. Maybe the strong side can inform the weak. Etc. 

Your PT should be able to give you a list of things to monitor on your own, your unique tendencies to break form on each given exercise. Ask for it. You can watch as you improve these weaknesses, develop body awareness, and gradually shave seconds off the reps. The list of corrections on which to focus is key. Without that your flying blind. 

Another obvious metric for this exercise is resistance. A common mistake is to use too stiff a band. Use a long easy one, and stand where the resistance is comfortable. Mark the floor. As you gradually improve, and move to increase the resistance, mark the floor again. There's your metric.

Since I have no clue what you are working on, all I can do is make an example of one common exercise, but the principle is the same for all repetitive drills.

Kristian Solemwrote:

After I retired from music production I trained for and worked as a Pilates teacher / physical therapy aide for several years beginning in 2007 (I still would be, but things conspired against me). During that time, I published a couple of articles including one for a publication called Pilates Style. My basic point had to do with progress during rehab or training. We experience periods of visible progress and plateaus. Periods of progress are exciting; we can get motivated and see light at the end of the tunnel. But the plateaus are tough. We feel like we’re getting nowhere, motivation is hard, and we don’t know when or even if it will end. “Is this the new normal?”

What we must do - and sometimes this takes professional guidance - is to set small but measurable goals. Take satisfaction in these miniscule improvements. Any forward movement is an achievement, no matter how small. The plateau does not mean you’re stuck, it means your body needs to catch up with itself.

I’ve been lousy at taking my own advice. In 2022 I will. This is my resolution.

(To be clear, a physical therapy aide is not an assistant PT. My role consisted, for the most part, of warming up and stretching with patients before their time with a PT, and to lead the patients through, and teach them, an exercise routine as prescribed by the PT. It was important that I understood what work was safe for people with different special conditions: hip replacements, ACL surgery, whatever. They hammered it into my head over and over again that any diagnosis or variance from my instructions was beyond the scope of my work.) 

Kris,

You bring a sharp focus to an excellent point(s).  Real progress may be consolidating your "prior progress," but appear to be a plateau. If you have trained long enough, you recognize the pattern. The only problem, that at my age, I find that it takes three times longer to regain fitness and one-tenth the time to lose it. I feel like I've become a shark, "keep moving or die."

However, when you suffer a set back, that can be really discouraging.  Three or four weeks ago, my PT (the PT aides are invaluable BTW), was going very well and I was climbing fairly well at the gym again. Then, I over did it (climbing), suffered a tweek (sharp pain) in my shoulder, and was back to very basic PT exercises and no climbing. But, with that easy PT I'm adding harder exercises again and making rapid progress (building on the several months of prior PT).  Did 5 routes at the gym yesterday, so I'm actually encouraged rather than totally bummed.

"keep moving or die." 

Ha. If I was still doing new routes I'd steal that name for sure   

Old lady Hwrote:

@Guy, Idaho gots some fishies. Jussst sayin.

Best, H.

We've been visiting Idaho the past couple of years.  We almost killed Keesee on the Salmon last year floating the river in the middle of a snow storm.  We thought he knew better than to wear cotton by now.  We are planning on going back there again next year (early summer) to fish over under the Tetons and where ever else our whimsy takes us.

There was one day where Guy caught more fish than me!!  We had hiked into a remote area of Kings Canyon National Park and after surviving that snow and rain storm on the hike in I was feeling sick.  I spent the day making firewood while Guy caught more fish in one day that he ever had before.  He might have been close to 100.  I made him huff out the next day (13+ miles with 3,000 feet of elevation).  We hit the car at dark.  It just about killed both of us.  We were going to fish the next day but he couldn't walk and I was too sick to care.  We drove home early.  A GREAT time was had by all!!!

Old lady Hwrote:

@Guy, Idaho gots some fishies. Jussst sayin.

Best, H.

H … I know there are tremendous Trout in Idaho. Going to get my annual out of state license in a few days.

Salmon River - last summer. Jan and I with help from our very strong “oarsmen” basically got tired of catching these strong babies.

About 20 years ago- when I first needed PT Kris gave me some great advice. It went like this: “two types of PT places. One full of old folks laying around and one full of activity- you don’t want to lay around do you?” I go to one full of athletes, local HS and College athletes, Police and Firefighters rehabbing. One of the PT people -a woman -was a trainer for Duke Basketball - she will come over to me and stop me if I’m not doing “it” correctly. They know what type of surgery I had - same as Tony I figure- so it’s gentle PT with really no BLT. I don’t know how that could be measured in an app. I measure it by the total pain I’m in. Less pain = improvement.
Staying motivated is tough, when I’m not motivated all I need to do is think about how wonderful moving over stone can feel and I really want that feeling again- really really want.

Jan - I don’t count the day you didn’t fish!!

And as to keeping moving or death. Erik Ericsson said the same thing to me last summer. He should know- he still moves!

Edit to add: Lori look up “Bachar, the Man, Myth and Legend”. Bulwinkle has the super 8 movie that he made one morning following John around his circuit in HVCG free soloing…. A bunch of casual climbs like Double Cross, Left Ski Track, Chalk up another one, Bearded Cabbage, Hot Rocks, More Monkey, and a few others I can’t remember. This was his morning warm up! Then he was ready to go climbing! 

I don't know how this happens. Looks like we're rounding the corner to the end of this thread again.  "One of us" is too verbose. I apologize. 

These stories that you have told about your friendships, not just bitd but today, they just blow my mind.  I've noticed that nearly everyone here has had longstanding strong marriages.  You've sought and found adventure, fun, strength and joy, solid bonds with your friends, even in the midst of some aging issues.  I know that you know you are blessed. What you have chosen sustains for a lifetime.  

I'm grabbing a little piece of that right now... but with some sense of loss that so many years went by for me pretty much alone and isolated as an overbusy single mom and a couple of kids trying to kill themselves.  So time out on the rock is pure liberation.  I'm coming to see that what has lit me up here is so much more than 'just climbing'... by far it's the friendships forged on climbing days out, the hit of nature and weather, the physical exhaustion (and growing strength) and that insiders' handshake...we are starting to understand one another. What REALLY blows my mind is that these friendships seem to be no respecter of persons--even a limited climber gets a nod.  

What I experience with 6  hours of hard climbing--laughter, hard work, friendship, teaching, achievement-- I can only imagine the long trips, the remote areas, the hard and dangerous hiking and climbing that you have under the belt with each other.  I'm so glad you have this, and have each other.   

Those are New Year's thoughts, mostly gratitude.  Tony's are along the same line, even though we walk very different paths.  I was trying to think of a reasonable list of goals for 2022 (climbing wise)... but nothing I'm interested in is really 'reasonable'.  I'd like to climb a 5.11 this year.  That's a long ways off, most likely.  But also, I'm starting to feel like a one-trick-pony... I have a knack at slab and thin-face climbing, pretty awful at crack climbing.  So, I'll pull out Randy's book and put together a list of cracks where I could start at the beginning (again) and build some strength there.  A reasonable goal would be to gracefully make it up Double Cross sometime this year--underscore 'gracefully'.    (Lately it's looking like the 405 freeway.  There is always someone crawling up that route. I like the idea of a FasTrak pass for residents    ).  

Also... maybe to just get to the base of Sugarloaf.  Maybe Todd can take a break from his boulder one day and walk up there with me.  

And to explore the famed approach to Tahquitz.  Also... I had another dexascan this week.  No more osteoporosis--barely even osteopenia in some areas, it's not supposed to turn around like that.  Some of the harshest lectures I received from doctors was the danger of leaving osteoporosis untreated. Finger waging in my face, predictions of terrible demise...  I mean "It's too late. You HAVE to take drugs."  You are not supposed to be able to add bone back... even with bisphosphonates, but I have, without any bisphosphonates.  So, maybe this year I'll just keep on adding bone.  Life can turn around.  

I never got out of my pajamas... I'm going for the gold today--endurance pajama performance.  A 'bed in'. Todd's got a big party at his house tonight, but it's dicey getting there.  We may just watch the New York ball drop.  

Todd party is cancelled. Something about a virus so I heard.  Happy New Year to those that look forward to those sort of things.