Buying a guidebook from someone whose ethics are widely in question

Thanks James,

If you withhold evidence of what you see as LAs newest misdeeds, then it is hard to know what is fact vs fiction. You are allowing Louie to continue his apparent misdeeds unless you passed the information along to the state and forest service. Are you?

State owned land up Sinks is planned to be drilled for rebar and cables as part of a Via Ferrata. The state is interested in manufacturing its own routes. 

Betting the state would support manufacturing in the Bighorns if they thought it would bring in more tourists. 

Teton Climberwrote:

Thanks James,

If you withhold evidence of what you see as LAs newest misdeeds, then it is hard to know what is fact vs fiction. You are allowing Louie to continue his apparent misdeeds unless you passed the information along to the state and forest service. Are you?

The most recent “development” (pun intended) that is occurring on state land is being handled internally between land owners and Louie. From my understanding monetary fines and specific areas are being kept private as to not start more “drama” that could potentially lead to further access issues. From the board members I’ve spoken to it seems that they are trying to keep it more-less under wraps as to not create more publicity and spark another event that involves chopping and such. It is also “ongoing”. They believe, from what I’ve been told, that the monetary fines and action by the state will be enough to stop his manufacturing for the near future.

Take that for what it’s worth, but I trust the individuals that I have spoken with that are dealing with the most recent issue. 

What's under debate here is style not ethics. To a layman there's no discernible difference between a whole for a finger and a hole for a bolt, it only matters to climbers. 

"Local ethic" only exists in the ether, so what is boils down to is mob rule.

Once you put drill to rock Pandora's box is open.

James Woods wrote:

Thanks teton climber.

Actually I do know 100% that the information has been passed on.

The only people "allowing" louie to continue manufacturing are the people like you, who continue to conflate and confuse the situation by making vague claims about ethics 

Thanks James, 

For all I know MP admins locked down Louie's bolts - so many unknown conflicts of interest on MP – but, simmering anger from some seems to signal a closer connection to the affair.

In regards to vagueness, the impression I get from most developers is that the old pornography "I'll know it when I see it" adage is what guides their development ethic. As has been discussed endlessly, defining “minimal destruction to the rock” or “excessive comfortization of holds” runs along a very fine line. Nobody dares define it in detail because manufacturing routes defines sport climbing and none wants too much oversight. And there are so many variables to consider that one wants wiggle room. 

Just recently, a past developer suggested that only difficult routes should be developed around Lander – that being the ethic. Another idea for the Forest Service to wrap its head around. Selfishness.

Everyone should read the BCC's management plan. And really, new developers do deserve something better than just a vague unwritten ethic. As does the general public. And this plan may have nationwide implications.

The FS will be taking comments from climbers and everyone else. If you think that the ethics of climbers discussing the Bighorn ethic is a problem, you haven't thought far enough into the future.

Go Back to Super Topo: ·Thanks for the update.

Teton Climberwrote:

The FS will be taking comments from climbers and everyone else. If you think that the ethics of climbers discussing the Bighorn ethic is a problem, you haven't thought far enough into the future.

I don't think anyone is discrediting the actual discussion of the ethics in the Bighorns...what I do see is people misinterpreting the ethics of the BHCC and AF by trying to "defend Louie" (I couldn't care less who was doing the manufacturing, as it wasn't just LA)...which then goes against the ethics that the BHCC, Access Func, and so many other climbing organizations have condemned. 

Teton Climberwrote:

Thanks James,

If you withhold evidence of what you see as LAs newest misdeeds, then it is hard to know what is fact vs fiction. You are allowing Louie to continue his apparent misdeeds unless you passed the information along to the state and forest service. Are you?

State owned land up Sinks is planned to be drilled for rebar and cables as part of a Via Ferrata. The state is interested in manufacturing its own routes. 

   

Betting the state would support manufacturing in the Bighorns if they thought it would bring in more tourists. 

   

"Oh, the horror!" and "An ABOMINATION!!!"

Say countless hypocrites driving on roads blasted through mountains just to bring them and their tourist money to the mountain west.

"Just think of the ROCK"

Hamster Boondogglewrote:

"Oh, the horror!" and "An ABOMINATION!!!"

Say countless hypocrites driving on roads blasted through mountains just to bring them and their tourist money to the mountain west.

"Just think of the ROCK"

Hmmmm.

Not sure if you followed the thread, or what you think I am thinking, or if your comment is directed toward me. 

The point about the state was that the state's ethic is not a judgement on the value of Louie's handiwork to climbers. They will happily manufacture routes if it drives economic activity - see their plans for VF in Sinks. Their ethic is largely defined by how much money they can extract from the land. By law, state lands are held in trust to help pay for education.

I made no judgment on Via Ferrata with this comment. If you think I was, you misunderstood the conversation, or didn't read it.

The state might support Louie if they saw economic value in his work. Some say that Louie's handiwork is driven by a profit motive. And climbing is a big economic driver in Tensleep. Louie's handiwork can also be seen as discouraging some visitation (the publicity is helpful).

Your comment suggests that Louie's development almost looks reasonable (especially to outsiders) compared to a VF as far as aesthetic goes. And both are forms of manufactured holds. That VF manufacturing is supported by many climbers in Lander, btw. They would probably not support drilled pockets instead of a VF, but who knows. The ethic is unwritten.

Obviously, the state is not going after Louie because he violated an unwritten climbing ethic in the Bighorns, only state law.

The federal management plan for Tensleep will become the new ethic for climbers in the Bighorns. It will be written for all to see, balance benefits to all users and the ecosystem, and be backed by a legal framework for enforcement. Hopefully they don't screw it up.

Teton Climberwrote:

Obviously, the state is not going after Louie because he violated an unwritten climbing ethic in the Bighorns, only state law.

The federal management plan for Tensleep will become the new ethic for climbers in the Bighorns. It will be written for all to see, balance benefits to all users and the ecosystem, and be backed by a legal framework for enforcement. Hopefully they don't screw it up.

Pardon my ignorance, but if you are correct in saying the state is going after Louie for breaking state law (which I believe you are). How is it that you say they are supporting manufacturing of rock? Via Ferrata is very different than actual climbing routes from many different aspects and VF is in South Dakota not Wyoming, correct?

Teton Climberwrote:

Hmmmm.

Not sure if you followed the thread, or what you think I am thinking, or if your comment is directed toward me. 

The point about the state was that the state's ethic is not a judgement on the value of Louie's handiwork to climbers. They will happily manufacture routes if it drives economic activity - see their plans for VF in Sinks. Their ethic is largely defined by how much money they can extract from the land. By law, state lands are held in trust to help pay for education.

I made no judgment on Via Ferrata with this comment. If you think I was, you misunderstood the conversation, or didn't read it.

The state might support Louie if they saw economic value in his work. Some say that Louie's handiwork is driven by a profit motive. And climbing is a big economic driver in Tensleep. Louie's handiwork can also be seen as discouraging some visitation (the publicity is helpful).

Your comment suggests that Louie's development almost looks reasonable (especially to outsiders) compared to a VF as far as aesthetic goes. And both are forms of manufactured holds. That VF manufacturing is supported by many climbers in Lander, btw. They would probably not support drilled pockets instead of a VF, but who knows. The ethic is unwritten.

Obviously, the state is not going after Louie because he violated an unwritten climbing ethic in the Bighorns, only state law.

The federal management plan for Tensleep will become the new ethic for climbers in the Bighorns. It will be written for all to see, balance benefits to all users and the ecosystem, and be backed by a legal framework for enforcement. Hopefully they don't screw it up.

What's the financial gain regarding Louie?

Tradibanwrote:

What's under debate here is style not ethics. To a layman there's no discernible difference between a whole for a finger and a hole for a bolt, it only matters to climbers. 

"Local ethic" only exists in the ether, so what is boils down to is mob rule.

Once you put drill to rock Pandora's box is open.

Can't believe that I agree with Tradiban.

As I said earlier, the planet is hurling to oblivion and bickering climbers are arguing about the arrangement of deck chairs on the Titanic.

Via Ferrata sounds very South Dakotaesque, frankly. I'm not sure how it compares to Stone Mountain, GA, but the alterations per capita, likely highest in SD.

"jUsT tHinK oF tHe rOcK"

J T wrote:

His guidebook (of which has Funky Town on the cover) for the area. Additionally, he owns a campground in the canyon that seems to always have "insider" info. Funky Town, for example was shown to his campers for months prior to being published online or in print. 

So Louie created a few lines so he could sell more guidebooks and offer inside info to guests? Doesn't sound very lucrative.

Bill Wwrote:

So Louie created a few lines so he could sell more guidebooks and offer inside info to guests? Doesn't sound very lucrative.

A "few" is putting it lightly. That's another story...

It is not lucrative, nor did I intend for it to come across as such. Louie's main business endeavors come from decades of being in the climbing gym/hold (shaping) industry. However, his guidebook I'm sure has gained him some monetary value, and I can guarantee the crowds staying at his campground has garnished him a pretty decent passive income. I think releasing his guidebook, especially in the fashion he did, had more motives than just financial as I already mentioned his primary source of income is surely elsewhere. However, the financial gain you may have been referring to in Teton's post seems to have been misconstrued as Teton was talking about the state gaining financial benefits...nothing to do with LA.

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

A "few" is putting it lightly. That's another story...which you could follow along with had you read this thread in it's entirety.

It is not lucrative, nor did I intend for it to come across as such. Louie's main business endeavors come from decades of being in the climbing gym/hold (shaping) industry. However, his guidebook I'm sure has gained him some monetary value, and I can guarantee individuals staying at his campground as garnished him a pretty decent passive income. I really releasing his guidebook, especially in the fashion he did had more motives than just financial, as I already mentioned his primary source of income is surely elsewhere. However, the financial gain you may have been referring to in Teton's post may have been misconstrued as Teton was talking about the state gaining financial benefits...nothing to do with LA.

So is Louie drilling pockets to line his own pockets or not?

Bill Wwrote:

So is Louie drilling pockets to line his own pockets or not?

In my opinion, no. What does his motives have to do with anything? If you knew anything about the situation you'd know that Louie was (seemingly) pretty set financially prior to his manufacturing in the canyon. 

Ron Owrote:

Can't believe that I agree with Tradiban.

As I said earlier, the planet is hurling to oblivion and bickering climbers are arguing about the arrangement of deck chairs on the Titanic.

I’ve been hearing for 50 years that the world is hurtling to oblivion.  So I’m over it, and focusing on deck chairs from now on.

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

In my opinion, no. What does his motives have to do with anything? If you knew anything about the situation you'd know that Louie was (seemingly) pretty set financially prior to his manufacturing in the canyon. 

Motives provide context. Louie has good intentions, intentions to make good routes. There's no law that says he can't do it that way, so if his guidebook is a good one just buy it already and support a developer.

Teton Climberwrote:

Hmmmm.

Not sure if you followed the thread, or what you think I am thinking, or if your comment is directed toward me. 

The point about the state was that the state's ethic is not a judgement on the value of Louie's handiwork to climbers. They will happily manufacture routes if it drives economic activity - see their plans for VF in Sinks. Their ethic is largely defined by how much money they can extract from the land. By law, state lands are held in trust to help pay for education.

I made no judgment on Via Ferrata with this comment. If you think I was, you misunderstood the conversation, or didn't read it.

The state might support Louie if they saw economic value in his work. Some say that Louie's handiwork is driven by a profit motive. And climbing is a big economic driver in Tensleep. Louie's handiwork can also be seen as discouraging some visitation (the publicity is helpful).

Your comment suggests that Louie's development almost looks reasonable (especially to outsiders) compared to a VF as far as aesthetic goes. And both are forms of manufactured holds. That VF manufacturing is supported by many climbers in Lander, btw. They would probably not support drilled pockets instead of a VF, but who knows. The ethic is unwritten.

Obviously, the state is not going after Louie because he violated an unwritten climbing ethic in the Bighorns, only state law.

The federal management plan for Tensleep will become the new ethic for climbers in the Bighorns. It will be written for all to see, balance benefits to all users and the ecosystem, and be backed by a legal framework for enforcement. Hopefully they don't screw it up.

Not directed at you at all, my friend.

Its a common axe for me to grind. 

New Agers driving SUVs and VanCastles on roads that will scar mountainsides until the glaciers return complaining about bolts and cleaning pockets etc.

Can't see the Forest for their carbon smoke clouds they generate.

The most important ethic is restraint.

Not in doing something, but in leaving something undone.

Somehow driving all over the West with the carbon footprint of a locomotive never enters into the discussion.

Bill Wwrote:

Motives provide context. Louie has good intentions, intentions to make good routes. There's no law that says he can't do it that way, so if his guidebook is a good one just buy it already and support a developer.

Well, there actually is....that's the entire reason Funky Town actually got shut down and in part why there is a bolting moratorium. We covered that on about page 4 of this thread. We've also covered that his guidebook is not significantly better than any of the others (also done by developers, more prolific in the canyon, than LA...albeit not as recent.) About the same about of people have said they prefer Louie's compared to Huey's (or Mike's Rakkup  app guide)

Speaking of context....it is really starting to seem like you have no context to this situation whatsoever....

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

Well, there actually is....that's the entire reason Funky Town actually got shut down and in part why there is a bolting moratorium. We covered that on about page 4 of this thread. We've also covered that his guidebook is not significantly better than any of the others (also done by developers, more prolific in the canyon, than LA...albeit not as recent.) About the same about of people have said they prefer Louie's compared to Huey's (or Mike's Rakkup  app guide)

Don't try and rewrite history. When he was doing the development there was no law that said you can't drill pockets or bolts, the moratorium came because some other locals didn't like his style, made a stink, and chopped his bolts making many routes dangerous forcing the FS's hand.