Climbing Gyms are Legit

M Mwrote:

Lol, "face it, any gym climber can learn trad on the internet!" Possibly the best reply yet. God bless!

Didn’t people just use books in your day or you just wing it?

Bryans I mostly agree with you except on puppies. Puppies are clearly illegitimate. There is no union of marriage between the father and mother.

Kevin I think you can simulate almost any outdoor aspect in the gym. The danger aspect alone has by done by the guy climbing over knifes in the gym.

MF every year I got slaughtered by Alaska anchorage in cross country and they lived on treadmills.

Kevin I think you can simulate almost any outdoor aspect in the gym

Yes, and I can almost climb 5.14

Kevin Worrallwrote:

Yes, and I can almost climb 5.14

Okay great. All the 5.14 climbers I know religiously climb in the gym while I think it’s possible to do it climbing outside alone it seems far more efficient. Your prior point about protection have you ever tried to lead on gear in the gym?

Outdoor climbing skills not learned indoors (cont.)

Nailing

Hooking

Heading

Hauling

Simul climbing

Simul rappelling

Snow and Ice climbing

Mixed climbing

Front pointing on rock

Avalanche avoidance

Bolting

Route cleaning

Trundling

Vision for new lines

Vision for new areas

Bivouacking

Slab climbing

Friction climbing

Laybacking

Climbing flares

Chimneying

I’m sure there’s more

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Didn’t people just use books in your day or you just wing it?

Nothing will ever beat learning on the job, hands on experience is the fast lane to sending safely.

I do agree gyms are legit fun if they are modern, steep and not packed full of anti social flexers. 

Gyms make you strong. Gym climbing is just a different style than outdoors for the most part. I climb in both about equally, and I climb about the same grade in both.

After the pandemic and not going to the gym for about 8 months, I was climbing way harder outside than inside when I went back to the gym. Many times outside you can find some subtle foot beta that will unlock a crux, inside you usually just have to pull hard.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Okay great. All the 5.14 climbers I know religiously climb in the gym while I think it’s possible to do it climbing outside alone it seems far more efficient. Your prior point about protection have you ever tried to lead on gear in the gym?

That’s cause they are probably 13. My guess is that  the 5.14’s they are flashing were established by OG’s who climbed predominantly outside. It’s definitely easier to train in a gym as there are more tools, but you might have a hard time being strongest at any discipline by climbing in the gym more than outside. 

Kevin Worrallwrote:

Outdoor climbing skills not learned indoors (cont.)

I am not always saying the climbing gym is better, just that many skills can be honed in the gym. Climbing outdoors in missouri wouldn't help you acquire many more skills than you would get in the gym. I agree with some of your points but I chose the ones I disagree with the most. 

Simul rappelling

IDK why you couldn't practice this in a gym, if anything it is the best place to do it.

Mixed climbing

They literally have indoor comps for this.

Slab climbing

Have you seen comp climbing?

Chimneying

I have been in many gyms that have chimneys.

Bivouacking

Have you heard of squatters rights? 

J T wrote:

That’s cause they are probably 13. My guess is that  the 5.14’s they are flashing were established by OG’s who climbed predominantly outside. It’s definitely easier to train in a gym as there are more tools, but you might have a hard time being strongest at any discipline by climbing in the gym more than outside.

I guess it depends on how you define religious, but most the full grown adults I know, gym climb for like 8 weeks then crush outdoors for 4. Others consistently hangboard. 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

I guess it depends on how you define religious, but most the full grown adults I know, gym climb for like 8 weeks then crush outdoors for 4.

That has nothing to do with my post unless the full grown adults you know at your gym are named Ondra, Megos, or Woods.

Others consistently hangboard. I am not always saying the climbing gym is better, just that many skills can be honed in the gym. Climbing outdoors in missouri wouldn't help you acquire many more skills than you would get in the gym. I agree with some of your points but I chose the ones I disagree with the most.

Maybe if you use Florida as your example, I could agree but otherwise no. 

I’m also curious as to how many gyms have you clean routes or hang your own draws? Cleaning steep routes seems an unlikely thing to learn in the gym, as does bailing off a route you can’t get up. I’m sure you could learn those in a gym, but the likelihood of learning those things outside seems much higher. 

“Slab climbing” in the gym is nothing like slab climbing outdoors, same with chimney climbing, especially flares, and mixed rock and ice? Not in the gyms I’ve been to, which by choice are few.

Of course you could practice the basics of simul rapping in a gym, but it would be lacking the challenges of natural terrain, especially on multiple raps, which is where the hazards and skills to deal with them are found.

Gyms are good training for power, endurance, flexibility, and if your main motivations in climbing are numbers, competition and socializing, they’re where it’s at.

Zero aesthetic value though, and no nature but human nature.

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

That has nothing to do with my post unless the full grown adults you know at your gym are named Ondra, Megos, or Woods.

Sean Bailey! I met Drew a long time ago once!

Maybe if you use Florida as your example, I could agree but otherwise no. 

I’m also curious as to how many gyms have you clean routes or hang your own draws? 

Two in New Hampshire

Cleaning steep routes seems an unlikely thing to learn in the gym

Haha I was told in the gym it would be truly terrible because it was a horizontal roof but YOLO.

Kevin Worrallwrote:

“Slab climbing” in the gym is nothing like slab climbing outdoors,

I guess but I would say it depends, a long sustained 5.6 slab is far different than a v6 boulder problem slab. But I am pretty sure someone who climbs v10 boulder slab could figureout 5.6 slab faster than a 5.6 slab climber could figureout v10 slab.

 same with chimney climbing, especially flares, 

Vertical dreams in manchester give it a go!!

and mixed rock and ice? Not in the gyms I’ve been to, which by choice are few.

I guess I am lumping ice fest and mixed climbing comps in, but if you haven't watched videos of Ouray, they are amazing!!

Gyms are good training for power, endurance, flexibility, and if your main motivations in climbing are numbers, competition and socializing, they’re where it’s at.

Zero aesthetic value though, and no nature but human nature.

So we agree!!

Kevin Worrallwrote:

Gyms are good training for power, endurance, flexibility, and if your main motivations in climbing are numbers, competition and socializing, they’re where it’s at.

They're also good for people like me who would otherwise only be able to climb 1x a week because I hang out with my kid after work instead of going to the crag.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

I guess but I would say it depends, a long sustained 5.6 slab is far different than a v6 boulder problem slab. But I am pretty sure someone who climbs v10 boulder slab could figureout 5.6 slab faster than a 5.6 slab climber could figureout v10 slab.

Huh?

A V10 climber can obviously figure out a 5.6 faster than a 5.6 climber can figure a V10 climber. What point are you trying to make by comparing the two….?

Ryan Never climbs wrote:

posturing is definitely a MAJOR facet of outsider climbing. as wells a flexing, chuffing, gramming, posing, fluffing( my favorite when i’m hung over). duffing? like my dandruff?

I know, I'm surprised it took someone this long to call me out!

I'm not exactly sure how to define duffing either, but I know it when I see it.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

I think that people are often fixated with the technical knowledge of how to climb outside while often forgetting the actual movement of climbing is something learned. A 5.6 trad dad knows how to plug gear better than a gym climber, however I wouldn't be surprised if a gym climber had a wider spectrum of learned movement they could execute. The best climber knows how to climb safely and how to execute the climbing movement, so being both an outdoor and indoor climber might yield the greatest amount of knowledge. 

No argument there, but there is a thread here somewhere where 9a+ climbers get scared plugging gear and I think Stefano Ghisolfi, whether joking or not swore it off forever haha.  So there's that.  At the end of the day, there are people like him, that climb predominantly outside but still dominate inside as well based on his competitions and making it into finals, There are people like Jacopo Larcher that will throw down on anything that existentially is touchable and will eat the lunch of almost any climber out there- James Pearson and others of that ilk also come to mind.  Then there's the other end of the spectrum- people that learned in a gym enjoy it and don't climb outside much and have little interest in outdoor climbing.  That's a pretty wide spectrum, not to mention what you state below.  

But are the outdoor climbers as good at climbing indoors as the indoor climbers? I climb harder outside than in the gym.

Who knows?  Again, I don't know how anyone could standardize what X = .  I know tons of climbers, new, veterans, primarily indoor, primarily outdoor, only do boulder, sport, trad (not many of these, admittedly) and the answer to your question varies wildly among those different climber types.

 

I might not be understanding you correctly, but if gym climbers were having more incidents then the ratio of climbers/incidents would increase.

Or maybe I'm stating it incorrectly.  I'm not really discerning between "inside and outside" climbers.  That's really hard to determine one way or the other.  What determines each?  How much they visit each in comparison? Like how much a particular person climbs inside as opposed to out or vice versa?  How much they enjoy it?  Hard to say.  All I'm saying is that many people point to the fact that the overall # of accidents is increasing, and that's indicative of "indoor climbers xyz" and I see it as the ratio staying about the same- meaning the ratio hasn't changed because the ratio is a result of a percentage, give or take a few points, of the total number of climbers in a given area.  If you have 500 climbers that visit an area, and 5 of them get injured, that's 1%.  If you have 5000 visit, and 50 get injured, everyone's like OMGWTFSUCHANINCREASE- yeah, an increase in the quantity, but the ratio stays the same.  1%.  

 If the typical gym climber were as informed as climbers have been historically then we would expect the ratio of climbers to incidents being the same while the volume of incidents increased. 

I don't know how one determines this without polling people and getting a huge sample size among different places and demographics.  We're all assuming that all gym climbers or new climbers (even if you're using these two terms synonymously) are the culprits and that they all have the same learning process and level of knowledge.  I don't think anyone can accurately arrive at that conclusion without evidence to point to why they did.  General "lived experience" would pass as imperical evidence these days, I guess that's just not enough for me to make that assumption.

Short Fall Seanwrote:

I know, I'm surprised it took someone this long to call me out!

I'm not exactly sure how to define duffing either, but I know it when I see it.

All i know is that I'm definitely getting duffed and fluffed if im at the crag

W Kwrote:

All i know is that I'm definitely getting duffed and fluffed if im at the crag

Bonus points for flexibility and creativity if you can do both simultaneously.

I cant bring my dog, hammock or my Bluetooth speaker to the gym so its definitely not legit.

I haven't kept up with the whole tread, but I dont consider your average gym goer a "climber", just like the people I know that go to traditional gyms aren't "weight lifters". All of these people just go to the gym. 

Climbers have climbing goals, besides 'getting the white 6 before it gets taken down'. You don't necessarily need to be training for outdoor goals, as one could be training for comps, or the Olympics, etc, without ever wanting to climb outside, but to just show up at the gym, hang around and climb, even regularly, doesn't make you a climber.

Matthew Jaggerswrote:

I haven't kept up with the whole tread, but I dont consider your average gym goer a "climber", just like the people I know that go to traditional gyms aren't "weight lifters". All of these people just go to the gym. 

Climbers have climbing goals, besides 'getting the white 6 before it gets taken down'. You don't necessarily need to be training for outdoor goals, as one could be training for comps, or the Olympics, etc, without ever wanting to climb outside, but to just show up at the gym, hang around and climb, even regularly, doesn't make you a climber.

Yeah, maybe, but that's just an extrapolation of the same idea that "climbers that rarely go outside aren't 'real' climbers".  One makes about as much sense and serves about the same purpose in stating:  Nothing.