Climbing Gyms are Legit

As someone who has had a gym membership for 3 months in the last 3 years, I feel pretty confident to say that gym climbers are just as good at climbing as outdoor climbers. Almost all our most successful climbers are gym regulars (Honnold did an ad for earth treks, Ondra did the Olympics, Sharma owns a gym, Wide Boyz sell volumes, Janja has the best female onsights outdoors). The term gymbie should be replaced with real rock climber. 

And what if we don't define rock climbing solely within the bounds of physical movement? For example, are gym climbers just as good at things like rapelling? Anchoring and belaying from above? 

Why does the AMGA recognize rock guide track certs as sufficient to instruct indoor climbing but not the other way around?

Climbing gyms *can be* legit.  Where I live, gym climbers, generally speaking are not as good as climbing outdoors as climbers that spend the majority of their time outdoors.  I think part of it is living in an urban area that's hours away from any area that has a wealth of rock and established rock routes.  The issue is with the term "gymbie".  It comes with a connotation that most or all gym climbers are clueless, or that all new climbers come straight out of the gym, and are clueless as a result.  I would say in my area it's about 70/30 for a ratio of clueless to not.  I see as many people doing dumb shit in the gym that could hurt themselves or someone else as I do outside.  The number of incidents has increased correlatively with the increase in the gen pop of climbers overall.  But, I have known people that have been climbing primarily outdoors for over 2 decades that I would never share a rope with unless I was suicidal, and I know climbers that have mainly climbed in the gym for a few months to a year, and I would have no issue taking them out cragging or doing low grade, short, 3 -4 pitch multi with them.  So the term, at best, is a misnomer and doesn't really accurately describe anything and used more as a way to denigrate gym climbers for those with a superiority complex.

T Legowrote:

And what if we don't define rock climbing solely within the bounds of physical movement? For example, are gym climbers just as good at things like rapelling? Anchoring and belaying from above? 

Why does the AMGA recognize rock guide track certs as sufficient to instruct indoor climbing but not the other way around?

I think that people are often fixated with the technical knowledge of how to climb outside while often forgetting the actual movement of climbing is something learned. A 5.6 trad dad knows how to plug gear better than a gym climber, however I wouldn't be surprised if a gym climber had a wider spectrum of learned movement they could execute. The best climber knows how to climb safely and how to execute the climbing movement, so being both an outdoor and indoor climber might yield the greatest amount of knowledge. 

Jake Joneswrote:

Climbing gyms *can be* legit.  Where I live, gym climbers, generally speaking are not as good as climbing outdoors as climbers that spend the majority of their time outdoors.  

But are the outdoor climbers as good at climbing indoors as the indoor climbers? I climb harder outside than in the gym. 

The number of incidents has increased correlatively with the increase in the gen pop of climbers overall.

I might not be understanding you correctly, but if gym climbers were having more incidents then the ratio of climbers/incidents would increase. If the typical gym climber were as informed as climbers have been historically then we would expect the ratio of climbers to incidents being the same while the volume of incidents increased. 

  But, I have known people that have been climbing primarily outdoors for over 2 decades that I would never share a rope with unless I was suicidal, and I know climbers that have mainly climbed in the gym for a few months to a year, and I would have no issue taking them out cragging or doing low grade, short, 3 -4 pitch multi with them.  

True!

So the term, at best, is a misnomer and doesn't really accurately describe anything and used more as a way to denigrate gym climbers for those with a superiority complex.

True!

Outdoor climbing skills not learned in a gym:

Routefinding

Climbing through loose rock

Placing protection

Removing protection

Building anchors

Rope management

Knots and hitches for particular situations

Weather reading - lightning, wind, precipitation, temps

Orienteering

Descent tactics

Speed climbing

Foreseeing hauling problems

Multi pitch gear management

Rope drag management

Judgement calls on multi pitch - continue or bail?

Judgement on essentials - fast and light

Gear selection per pitch

Belay position choice

Approach choices

Descent choices 

Reading the rock

I’m sure there’s more

Indoor climbing skills not learned outdoors:

Flexing

Posturing

Posing

'Gramming

Chuffing

Duffing

Fluffing

Parkour

Btw, I'm just messing about, I freaking love gym climbing.

There's a long list of skills needed in the outdoors.

But one of the most important skills needed in the outdoors is climbing ability. For most people, a gym is a great place to develop that ability.

I climbed in a gym in Quebec--helped my French a lot--especially the swearing.

Yuri Rodea wrote:

Other skills not learned in a gym:

Differential Equations

Classical Mechanics

Organic Chemistry

Python

French

Keyboard

You guys are dweebs 

A climbing gym is actually probably not a bad place to find someone to teach you Python or DiffEQ. Lots of nerds to be found in those places. 

Anyway, per original topic, Trevor is doing just his usual schtick of making a legitimate point, but wrapping it in layers of overstatement and trolling. The legitimate point at the core is that climbing gyms are a good place to develop climbing ability, and lay a groundwork that allows you to develop in various directions in your outdoor climbing. A strong gym kid, even if clueless about outdoor climbing right now, could do great things within just a few years of outdoor experience.

JCMwrote:

A strong gym kid, even if clueless about outdoor climbing right now, could do great things within just a few years of outdoor experience.

Probably doesn't even take a few years.

Take a gymbie that onsights 5.12 sport and has spent just a summer vacation doing outdoor trad vs a 5.10 trad climber that's been doing it forever.

The gymbie is more likely to succeed on just about any route.

Gyms are for training the body, not the mind

Take a gymbie that onsights 5.12 sport and has spent just a summer vacation doing outdoor trad vs a 5.10 trad climber that's been doing it forever.

The gymbie is more likely to succeed on just about any route.

Not likely on runout slab or wide cracks

I figured I wouldn't go back to a gym after skipping last winter. But now I have again. I guess gyms must be legit: too legit to quit.

Kevin Worrallwrote:

Outdoor climbing skills not learned in a gym:

Routefinding

tey being color blind, way harder to find the right holds

Climbing through loose rock

youve never encountered a spinner?

Placing protection

the cool  gyms have crack 

Weather reading - lightning, wind, precipitation, temps

I walk to the gym, it can be prreeeeeeeeeeetttty spicy when afternoon storms roll through. My gym also doesn’t have A/C

Orienteering

Sometimes roads are closed on my way to the gym and I have to find a new way there

Speed climbing

My gym has a speed wall, does that count?

Rope drag management

You clearly haven’t climbed the dark gray route at my gym that winds between the bolt lines, creating a zig zag reminiscent to “taste the rainbow“ at the RRG 

Judgement on essentials - fast and light

That’s what the internet is for

Gear selection per pitch

That’s what MP is for

Belay position choice

Missionary…always

Approach choices

Again, I walk to the gym

Reading the rock

Follow the chalk or crack/feature

I’m sure there’s more

There’s not, gyms are the end all, be all. 

JCMwrote:

Anyway, per original topic, Trevor is doing just his usual schtick of making a legitimate point, but wrapping it in layers of overstatement and trolling. The legitimate point at the core is that climbing gyms are a good place to develop climbing ability, and lay a groundwork that allows you to develop in various directions in your outdoor climbing. A strong gym kid, even if clueless about outdoor climbing right now, could do great things within just a few years of outdoor experience.

I still don't get why Trevor spends time stating obviously true things as if they are profound or controversial insights. Here's some more hot topics for you to clog MP with:

Trolling is legit

Choss is legit

Princesses are legit

Trevors are legit

Puppies are legit

Lovers are legit

This song ties the whole thread together:

https://youtu.be/h_TESdKUzjU

Was it 10 years ago or was it 15 that I posted that gyms are for rock masters.

Climbing gyms have colored holds or tape, very little wiggle room in how to execute the move, and generally no rest to the top. For that reason, I asserted that gyms were actually harder, once the variables had been overcome, than outdoors.

Considering my best outdoor red point is 1.5 NUMBER graders harder than indoors. Give credit where it’s due. Gyms are hard.

I’ll concede that most of y’all suck route finding, gear placement, efficiency, onsighting, projecting, life, and flannel. This might skew your numbers. That’s more of a “you” problem, not the fault of the gym.

I climb at least 3.5 number grades lower in the gym, thats how good i am on the rock.

Actually i have no gym.

Kevin Worrallwrote:

Not likely on runout slab or wide cracks

This is something climbers who are afraid to try hard tell themselves to feel better about being scared to try hard. Lots of "let's see Ondra climb some REAL MANLY climbs in Yosemite" folks had to stfu real quick when he sent the Dawn Wall second go. Face it, the "outdoor skills" are pretty easy to learn if you're motivated and have a good mentor (or even just a YouTube account). The hard part is pulling down.

(Kevin, I'm not trying to comment on your climbing--you may climb hard af for all I know. But I disagree with you, and I hear a lot of trad dads putting down "gymbies" as a means to quench their own ego and their internal sadness of only climbing 5.9.)

Lol, "face it, any gym climber can learn trad on the internet!" Possibly the best reply yet. God bless!