An unpopular take on The Alpinist

bryanswrote:

I expected this thread to degenerate into reductive mano-a-mano exchanges (like all the rest) but I'm disappointed we haven't heard from Mikey Schaefer yet. The man who (among others) filmed Honnold in Free Solo may just have had a thing or two to say on the various issues bandied about here. Then again he may be smart enough to watch from a safe distance.

Well the person who could give some insight on the filmaking process pre and post accident is Peter Mortimer. Nano Tradgressor could reach out to him, but Nano is not starting off with an air of any authority. As far as I can tell, they're just trolling. It takes a lot more manipulation for a film maker or gear company to make an athlete believe they don't have agency over their very lives, which again is what they seem to be implying. It doesn't pass the sniff test for me.

bryanswrote:

we haven't heard from Mikey Schaefer yet.

I'm pretty sure he did comment, but might have deleted it. (maybe wisely)

Bill Wwrote:

By engaging Marc and filming his exploits Mortimer is obligated to explore the mental wellness of his subjects to protect their safety. 

It's entirely possible that Mortimer did explore Marc's mental wellness, as they began filming the project.  Why do you suggest to know otherwise?  

Marc was an adult and gave them consent to film.  It sounds like you believe he wasn't of sound mind to give them that consent?  Again, why might that be?  Is it because you can't possibly imagine taking those risks?  Or did you know him personally and have a deeper understanding of all the issues at play here?  

When you talk to your friends and family about your experiences in climbing, do you feel the need to discuss your mental wellness with them?  Would you feel upset if someone, a stranger no less, questioned your mental health or motivations? 

When you talk to your friends and family about your experiences in climbing, do you feel the need to discuss your mental wellness with them?

Lol, if millennial or younger, I'd suspect a resounding YES.

I'm not an alpinist nor particularly drawn to the riskier elements of our sport but I do find it interesting that a lot of the examples of excellent climbers lost in this thread were due to relatively common hazards (avalanche, rappel errors, descending) and not typically during their "peak" risky moments (maybe Bachar's fall still fits that bill, although that route was a routine thing for him I gather). I think could be an element of complacency at play when expertise pushes the limits so that in order to move with best efficiency they make snap decisions that can have fatal consequences. Granted expertise reduces the changes of failure, but only to some unspecified point (unless someone really wants to dig out some accident report stats and go to town). I suspect putting yourself out there in these more mundane risk situations becomes a lot more frequent than the extreme moments and they aren't as exciting to talk about, ie: 0.1% chance failure x 1,000 efforts > 10% x 1 efforts. 

If not outright complacency, part of the danger of developing that expertise is stacking up risk so often during time spent getting good. 

Jason Kimwrote:

It's entirely possible that Mortimer did explore Marc's mental wellness, as they began filming the project.  Why do you suggest to know otherwise?  

Marc was an adult and gave them consent to film.  It sounds like you believe he wasn't of sound mind to give them that consent?  Again, why might that be?  Is it because you can't possibly imagine personally taking those risks?  Or did you know him personally and have a deeper understanding of all the issues at play here?  

When you talk to your friends and family about your experiences in climbing, do you feel the need to discuss your mental wellness with them?  Would you feel upset if someone, a stranger no less, questioned your mental health or motivations? 

No need to pile on guys. I think that soloists should not be filmed as the presence of a film crew changes the equation for the climber. A person who is attempting to climb full time has alot of incentive to accept a sponsorship/filming and ignore how it may change their climbing.

Soloing is a deeply personal act and should be treated as such.

Bill Wwrote:

No need to pile on guys. I think that soloists should not be filmed as the presence of a film crew changes the equation for the climber. A person who is attempting to climb full time has alot of incentive to accept a sponsorship/filming and ignore how it may change their climbing.

Soloing is a deeply personal act and should be treated as such.

Why do you feel the need to gatekeep how a soloist climbs, how he/she is filmed, why they are soloing etc? 

You climb for your reasons, others climb for theirs. All reasons are valid.

Bill Wwrote:

I think that soloists should not be filmed as the presence of a film crew changes the equation for the climber. 

Soloing is a deeply personal act and should be treated as such.

No one is piling on here. You’re submitting your own hot takes one after another on a discussion forum, you should expect to receive replies. Most of these replies are courteous and respectful.

Look at what you just wrote and consider the irony in those statements. 

Bill Wwrote:

No need to pile on guys. I think that soloists should not be filmed as the presence of a film crew changes the equation for the climber. A person who is attempting to climb full time has alot of incentive to accept a sponsorship/filming and ignore how it may change their climbing.

Soloing is a deeply personal act and should be treated as such.

You realize that he did the original solos totally alone, yes? He went back with the crew to redo/film specific sections for the movie.

I dont believe he was exploited. It seemed to me that he was definitely self medicating with climbing, but it also seemed to me that he was probably living  his best life and ended up making his decisions pretty consciously and with what seemed a good deal of self awareness. The unfortunate  or sad aspect is that he passed due to an objective hazard,  cutting short what could potentially have been a much fuller life. However, that unique flower definitely bloomed and we have at least a small amount of a record of what he achieved to be able to celebrate it. And we should. But he was definitely not exploited. Does instragram and modern popular climbing culture negatively affect  and exploit athletes ? Absolutely. Is this an example of it?  I dont believe so. 

J W wrote:

Not that it matters beyond mere trivia, but it’s “champing” at the bit.

It’s one of those use cases where we nearly always hear it spoken incorrectly, so the incorrect version bleeds over into our writing.

Like “a whole nother thing.”

Again, trivial.

Well, for all intensive purposes…

Bill Wwrote:

Soloing is a deeply personal act and should be treated as such.

Obviously not so personal that you leave it up to the soloist to decide for themselves without piling on your hand wringing horseshit every time it's brought up

Marcus McCoywrote:

 It seemed to me that he was definitely self medicating

Couldn't let it go by: 

Everybody is self medicating. From marriage to shopping, from booze to boob jobs, work to music, skiing to romance novels, MP to .....

Normal. Sometimes unhealthy or risky but that often defines youth. Also normal.

I didnt say that was a bad thing, and didnt mean to imply it. 

“self-medicating” - that’s what some tend to turn to when the reason escapes them.  Instead of considering the possibilities … no, it must be something underneath screaming to be fixed.  

Well. Once in a while, the reality can be quite different. 

Jason Kimwrote:

No one is piling on here. You’re submitting your own hot takes one after another on a discussion forum, you should expect to receive replies. Most of these replies are courteous and respectful.

Look at what you just wrote and consider the irony in those statements. 

The irony is lost on me, can you explain it?

I think it’s a good thread. Movies and the arts are meant to spark discussion, make us wonder and teach us something. I got a lot out of his blog post so thanks to those who linked to it. He had great insight. 

I did get a self-medicating sense from the documentary. I don’t know if that was intentional with the filming and I don’t judge it because we all self-medicate to different degrees. 

phylp phylp, I love your words, “no possession or experience has been as valuable to me as the experience of sharing that feeling of love with other beings.” Perspective changes so much throughout life. New love is gained as we journey through it.

From Marc-Andre’s writing it sounds like these experiences gave him clarity and perspective in life outside of the mountains too.

Ironic thing is he didn’t die free soloing, he died climbing with a partner and they were using a rope and gear, evidenced by the rope being visible from under the avalanche. In a way their deaths were statistically inevitable, like Alex Hannold callously told his girl in Free Solo “What did she expect?”

I was struck by the duality of this guy.  He seemed like such a flighty, drifty, stoner-esque personality juxtaposed with a supreme and almost unparalleled focus and drive to perfect every facet of his climbing down to the most minute detail.  The contrast, to me, is fascinating, and his climbing was awe-inspiring.  I'd been following him since I watched a vid of him fawning over Sonnie Trotter in the early 2010s and have been a fan ever since.  I don't have any input at all on the "ethics" of what he did or if he was exploited or not.  Contrary to popular belief, I do think people are autonomous, make their own decisions and have free will.  Plus, he was smart.  Very smart.  You don't accomplish the things he did by being a simpleton that can be easily duped into being exploited.  Ha.  I guess I do have somewhat of an opinion.  The film was well done, but Dawn Wall is still my personal favorite "modern" climbing film.  Cutting edge alpinism is scary af to me and all who embark on such missions garner my respect automatically.

I loved this film.  What an incredible talent.  Marc-Andre seemed about as pure of a climber as there’s ever been.  He would have done the barrier shattering things that he did with or without sponsorship.  They could barely do a movie about him because he didn’t want them filming his big solos.  He was not seeking fame or public accolades.  
How could you even try to stop a force like Marc-Andre? I don’t think it would have been possible to slow him down or change his focus.
It was inevitable that he would die in the mountains and that’s the great tragedy. But it would have also been a tragedy for Marc-Andre to not follow his inner force.
I can’t come close to comprehending the skill and mental power needed to free solo The Freerider or to do the great climbs of Marc-Andre, but I’m glad those talents exist and that they are out there showing us the limits of what’s possible.