You Suck at Belaying

Sorry, but Jagger is right here on this point. Whether you believe his/her belief   about how belaying should be done, there is virtually no situation in which a random person intervening is going to help. I don’t think I’ve ever once seen this be productive. The only time I’ve seen belay behavior be helped by someone speaking up, it has been between friends/partners who already knew each other well, or maybe an obviously more experienced person talking to an obvious noob (who knew they were a noob). In virtually every other scenario, speaking up is not going be productive, and certainly not in the middle of someone belaying/climbing.

Matthew Jaggerswrote:

Thats not true. Based on the responses, id say 51% max of respondents here know how, or even want a soft catch. The guy wanting hard catches on gear placements is really blowing my mind. The most critical soft catches I can remember giving were long, awkward trad falls over .1's and .2's. Without a soft catch on Rebar, a left traversing, awkward finger crack with small gear, you'd get wrecked into the wall, and you could pull pieces for sure. This place ain't my choir, that I know for sure.

There's a time and place for a soft catch, it's not for every fall. A great belayor will know when to give one and when not to.

This skill isn't something that can be sprayed down on MP, it has to be demonstrated at the crag as it includes climber preference and route specific circumstances. If you see bad catches do something about it. MP rants achieve nothing.

csproulwrote:

Sorry, but Jagger is right here on this point. Whether you believe his/her belief   about how belaying should be done, there is virtually no situation in which a random person intervening is going to help. I don’t think I’ve ever once seen this be productive. The only time I’ve seen belay behavior be helped by someone speaking up, it has been between friends/partners who already knew each other well, or maybe an obviously more experienced person talking to an obvious noob (who knew they were a noob). In virtually every other scenario, speaking up is not going be productive, and certainly not in the middle of someone belaying/climbing.

I agree with you 100%, but that doesn't make what I'm saying any less true, either.  No one is going to read his post and say "hmmm, I've seemingly been going about this all wrong!  I'm turning over a new leaf after reading this!"  It's a rant.  That's it.  I mean, I hope I'm wrong.  I see it all the time, just like Jaggers and the more people that venture into climbing, the more I see it. It's just that I'm not delusional about the effect that saying something in person vs. posting online about it will have.

Dr Logic wrote:

Y'all need to stop posting, Fritz ended this thread.

Matthew Jaggerswrote:

This is the main reason for this thread... 

The main reason for this thread is to stroke your ego.

Giving good advice is good, but first make sure it's good. Let's take this gem for example

The guy wanting hard catches on gear placements is really blowing my mind.

The "give a soft soft catch so the gear doesn't blow out" is absolutely shitty advice in more than 99% of falls on gear. And it is nearly impossible to identify or effectively mitigate the less-than 1% of situations where a soft catch could make a difference. The concept of making trad placements more effective through better belaying is a myth propagated by know-it-alls that overthink things and falsely believe they have some elite level of expertise.

A well-placed trad piece will hold with any catch, a poorly-placed trad piece will likely fail with any catch, and the situations in-between where the belayer can change that outcome are minuscule and impossible to predict from the other end of the rope. When belaying a trad climber just catch the fucking fall and don't try to "assist" the gear placement. Because your soft catch almost certainly won't affect whether the gear holds, and very likely will increase the chances of your climber hitting something on the way down.

(spare us the rebuttal about overhanging trad routes, yeah I know there are rare exceptions...)

Stop believing you can do magic with a belay device. Stop encouraging others to try your tricks.  And understand that even YOU, the superstar Matthew Jaggers could still learn, and unlearn, some things.

Josh Squirewrote:

I was not the climber nor the belayer. Eye witness accounts plus the climber’s testimony concluded that it was a hard catch. There is absolutely no disputing it. That was the mechanism of injury. Now, with that said, there are ALWAYS other variables in play that may make a hard catch and an injury more likely. For example, how much rope is out, the attention of the belayer, the timing of the belayer, the angle of the climb, friction in the system, was there a previous fall and did the rope get a chance to rest, etc. etc. 

Bottom line is…as the belayer, your job is to give an appropriate catch. Often, that means a soft catch. Sometimes you need to make it harder. Sometimes all you need to do brake. Good belaying takes years to cultivate. I’ve been climbing 20 years and still continue to critique my own belaying. 

I agree with you for the most part and I strive to give soft catches where and when appropriate also (and I continue to learn as I approach 3 decades of climbing). What I have an issue with is people very commonly say that they got injured because of a hard catch, as if there would have been zero injury otherwise. Sure, there are many times when an injury is exacerbated by a bad belay, but throwing up a pic of a blown-apart leg and suggesting or even thinking that a soft catch would leave this person unscathed is almost always BS. Or that you can look at an x-ray and point you finger at a hard catch as the definitive reason - BS. Sometimes, sure. A lot of injuries can be tempered, but it as far too common that someone gets hurt and immediately blames the catch. I would guess a soft catches (as a whole, when used appropriately) lessen the severity of an injury sometimes, and prevent one all-together pretty rarely, but it seems ubiquitous that if there is an injury at all, the catch not being soft enough is the sole blame. The OP was specifically about the Red and presumable steep routes, and there, soft catching is appropriate and should be used a lot of the time and probably lessens injuries disproportionately more there than other places.

A few things that I find disconcerting (other than people thinking soft catches are not useful): 1. Someone claiming they can give soft catches all of the time. 2. Someone saying don't worry, they give soft catches (happened to me recently with a new 'experienced' partner as I was tying in to lead a 35m slab route that kicked back to vert for the last 5 meters). 3. Someone saying that they got hurt because of a hard catch (implying they would have been completely fine otherwise) and not accounting for the fact that climbing is dangerous and there is going to be a lot of injuries while falling off of a cliff, for many reasons.

Story time,

I once saw a girl get spiked at the Red and sprain her ankle. She then proceeded to apologize profusely to her male climbing partner for getting hurt. After the guy walked away, my female climbing partner let her know that it actually wasn't her fault and that the guy was just a bad belayer. The injured girl didn't understand. Talk about Stockholm syndrome.

I would imagine the disconnect on this thread results largely from the type of climbing that people do. If you most just climb trad, or vertical (snoozefest) sport climbs it's not really a relevant topic. If you mostly climb overhanging (real) sport climbs, it is relevant. I have seen lots of folks get injured from hard catches. The people who give attentive belays and soft catches don't spike their climbers and injure them. The people who don't give soft catches occasionally do. It is pretty simple.

JohnWesely Weselywrote:

I would imagine the disconnect on this thread results largely from the type of climbing that people do. If you most just climb trad, or vertical (snoozefest) sport climbs it's not really a relevant topic. If you mostly climb overhanging (real) sport climbs, it is relevant. I have seen lots of folks get injured from hard catches. The people who give attentive belays and soft catches don't spike their climbers and injure them. The people who don't give soft catches occasionally do. It is pretty simple.

Several pages back you were saying it's always about shitty belayers, until I corrected you. I see you are finally starting to get it.

It's notable that the soft catch zealots often have a tone of snobbishness about what is "real" climbing (or seem to be generally ignorant about the diversity of rock and routes out there.) 

You like spending hours hangdogging on permadraws?. Good for you! Some people have other preferences. For example, one could spend a lifetime in Yosemite Valley progressing to the most amazing and difficult routes without ever giving a thought to a soft catch. But I guess they still wouldn't be a "real" climber, lol.

OP wrote - but maybe deleted? - this:

"Giving good advice is good, but first make sure it's good. Let's take this gem for example: The guy wanting hard catches on gear placements is really blowing my mind."

I think I'm "the guy" but I never said I wanted a hard catch on trad leads. I said I kept someone barely off the deck when his top cam blew, and that a soft catch from me would have led to him decking from 35 feet. So I added, in the context of that anecdote, please spare me a soft catch on a trad route, as I place pro at intervals that will keep me from hitting things under the assumption I am getting a normal belay, not an extra long soft catch belay that might lead to me hitting a ledge I otherwise wouldn't have hit.

OP: over and over you are twisting people's words to justify this rant, when all of us agree a hard catch is lame but soft caches aren't always necessary or helpful

JohnWesely Weselywrote:

Story time,

I once saw a girl get spiked at the Red and sprain her ankle. She then proceeded to apologize profusely to her male climbing partner for getting hurt. After the guy walked away, my female climbing partner let her know that it actually wasn't her fault and that the guy was just a bad belayer. The injured girl didn't understand. Talk about Stockholm syndrome.

I would imagine the disconnect on this thread results largely from the type of climbing that people do. If you most just climb trad, or vertical (snoozefest) sport climbs it's not really a relevant topic. If you mostly climb overhanging (real) sport climbs, it is relevant. I have seen lots of folks get injured from hard catches. The people who give attentive belays and soft catches don't spike their climbers and injure them. The people who don't give soft catches occasionally do. It is pretty simple.

Good story. I think you are right - a lot of this debate comes from the narrow experiences of overhanging sport climbers (snoozfest) vs. the people that have much broader experiences (including overhanging sport climbs). For the thuggy sport climbs, soft catching is typically in order (and easier). For the rest, it is more of an evaluate the situation second-by-second thing, where sort catches can be extremely important sometimes and not others. Not sure if you know this, but on a vert sport climb, a soft catch can be pretty useful in relation to where the climber is relative to the bolt. Watched and took some great whips on some vert sport 7a-7c+ in Ceuse recently! No snoozing there.  

soft cruxwrote:

Several pages back you were saying it's always about shitty belayers, until I corrected you. I see you are finally starting to get it.

It's notable that the soft catch zealots often have a tone of snobbishness about what is "real" climbing (or seem to be generally ignorant about the diversity of rock and routes out there.) 

You like spending hours hangdogging on permadraws?. Good for you! Some people have other preferences. For example, one could spend a lifetime in Yosemite Valley progressing to the most amazing and difficult routes without ever giving a thought to a soft catch. But I guess they still wouldn't be a "real" climber, lol.

Imagine tricking yourself into thinking that climbing subvertical routes on glass textured rock while in a state of fear is somehow fun.

Hope for Movementwrote:

Watched and took some great whips on some vert sport 7a-7c+ in Ceuse recently! No snoozing there.  

Sounds scary.

JohnWesely Weselywrote:

Imagine tricking yourself into thinking that climbing subvertical routes on glass textured rock while in a state of fear is somehow fun.

I thought this thread could not get any more ridiculous.... 

.....and along comes a post saying that climbing in Yosemite is not fun.

As angsty and unpleasant as this thread is, there are a few things that are worth saying. There are no absolutes, and everything is situation dependent.  In roughly three decades of climbing, I was the belayer on two catches that resulted in broken ankles.

The first was my wife on a slightly overhanging route when she blew the second clip. I intentionally gave her a hard catch to keep her off the deck. Would she have decked? Maybe. If she did, would the injury have been worse?  The landing was pretty bad, so probably. Despite a lot of soul searching, I think that a hard catch may have been the least bad choice.

The second incident was when my partner fell from the anchors of a slightly less than vertical route. He was about 15’ runout at the time, and I stepped into the fall to give him a soft catch. The catch was soft, but the fall was bigger than it needed to be, and upon reflection, a tighter/harder belay probably would have been preferable.

Anyway, I’m not sure what my point is other than that absolutes are recipe for problems. Still, I sure do enjoy the gumby-bros at gym nearly decking with each fall because of “soft catch!”

soft cruxwrote:

The main reason for this thread is to stroke your ego.

All of these rant threads are ego trips disguised as PSAs. No one is reading this and thinking "Omg, I'm a bad belayor and I need to fix it."

If the rantors really cared they would say something when they see it. There are ways to engage people without coming off as condescending or elitist. This applies to bad belays or noobs pulling on loose rocks, nodding to that other rant thread.

Jesus this thread is pure gold.

Between Fritz winning the internet and learning the term "shit-raging your pants" this has been a lunch well spent.

TBH, I thought a 'soft catch' was when your highball bouldering partner throws a pad under you and you land on it in mid-air.

Hope for Movementwrote:

TBH, I thought a 'soft catch' was when your highball bouldering partner throws a pad under you and you land on it in mid-air.

See, I tried that, but my spotter kept experiencing technical difficulties.

How's the Edelrid Ohm factor in to all this? Should the soft catch police hire a class action lawyer?

Joe Prescottwrote:

I agree with you for the most part and I strive to give soft catches where and when appropriate also (and I continue to learn as I approach 3 decades of climbing). What I have an issue with is people very commonly say that they got injured because of a hard catch, as if there would have been zero injury otherwise. Sure, there are many times when an injury is exacerbated by a bad belay, but throwing up a pic of a blown-apart leg and suggesting or even thinking that a soft catch would leave this person unscathed is almost always BS. Or that you can look at an x-ray and point you finger at a hard catch as the definitive reason - BS. Sometimes, sure. A lot of injuries can be tempered, but it as far too common that someone gets hurt and immediately blames the catch. I would guess a soft catches (as a whole, when used appropriately) lessen the severity of an injury sometimes, and prevent one all-together pretty rarely, but it seems ubiquitous that if there is an injury at all, the catch not being soft enough is the sole blame. The OP was specifically about the Red and presumable steep routes, and there, soft catching is appropriate and should be used a lot of the time and probably lessens injuries disproportionately more there than other places.

A few things that I find disconcerting (other than people thinking soft catches are not useful): 1. Someone claiming they can give soft catches all of the time. 2. Someone saying don't worry, they give soft catches (happened to me recently with a new 'experienced' partner as I was tying in to lead a 35m slab route that kicked back to vert for the last 5 meters). 3. Someone saying that they got hurt because of a hard catch (implying they would have been completely fine otherwise) and not accounting for the fact that climbing is dangerous and there is going to be a lot of injuries while falling off of a cliff, for many reasons.

It’s really quite simple. It’s called mechanism of injury. If I was skiing down a hill and slammed into a tree and got injured, would we be debating if I would have been injured if I didn’t hit the tree?

Climber slams into the wall and breaks their ankle. Belayer failed to give a soft catch. Sometimes 1 + 1 = 2. Instead of doubling down on what you believe to be true, maybe you could learn something.

Edit to clarify: the entire purpose of giving a soft catch, if the situation warrants it, is to PREVENT the climber slamming into the wall.