You Suck at Belaying

Short Fall Seanwrote:

I've been climbing for 15 or so years. I don't recall hearing about "soft catches" for at least the first five of those years and maybe a bit more. Does that jive with anyone else's experience? I ask because it feels like a way overblown thing these days. For sure there are certain situations where someone is in danger of swinging back into a feature and a tight belay could enhance that danger, but that is not an issue on the vast majority of falls. Perhaps this occurs more at areas with steeper rock, like the Red?

You were just climbing with shitty belayers for the first 10 years.

JohnWesely Weselywrote:

You were just climbing with shitty belayers for the first 10 years.

More likely it's about the type of climbs than the competence of the belayer.

soft cruxwrote:

More likely it's about the type of climbs than the competence of the belayer.

He said sport climbing.

Matthew Jaggerswrote:

Dude was about 1 foot off the ground everytime he gave you a hard catch. 

How high off the ground should he be?

I have always been of the school of thought that sometimes you just need to experience something. For those not believing in hard catches being a thing, I recommend you ask your partner to take then fall a few feet. 

This is also why I recommend people soft deck a few times to prevent a real decking in the future. Been 1600 pitches since I was injured last so something must be working!

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

I have always been of the school of thought that sometimes you just need to experience something. For those not believing in hard catches being a thing, I recommend you ask your partner to take then fall a few feet. 

This is also why I recommend people soft deck a few times to prevent a real decking in the future. Been 1600 pitches since I was injured last so something must be working!

Be sure to partake in Practice Decking at your gym, where it is safe

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/117729312/gym-climbing-whip?page=2

I let my partner deck to preserve the onsight. Fucking hangdogger ethics ruining climbing. 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

I recommend you ask your partner to take then fall a few feet. 

lol, I do that all the time!

It depends on the route. On slab if you ask your partner to take (lock off, but don't pull me off!) and then fall you will just fall twice the length of the rope plus some stretch. It's not a big deal.

At the gym on the steep overhanging routes you can swing in and a soft catch makes a difference because you fall farther (scary sometimes!) but that gets you away from the wall and the swing is longer and more gentle.

Where I live in So Cal there is lots of sport climbing that is not steep like a gym. Many areas are mostly crimps and edges so even the harder routes are not necessarily vertical or overhung. A soft catch on these routes just means falling farther and more likelihood of hitting one of those edges.

I don't get why everybody is giving Matthew J. such a hard time.  Yes, I also climbed for about 20 years before ever hearing the term soft catch but as a relatively lightweight woman, I really appreciate my partners who know how to give them NOW when I'm on the type of routes and in the right circumstances where they can make a big difference.  I and my partners have the experience to know when that is and how to give a soft catch.  Some people don't.  Thanks Matthew for caring about this.

The modern "soft catch" (often exhibited in gyms, where the climber is 2' above their draw and falls 30') typically disappears at pitch 2 of any route. Even on sport. So hard and fast rules are dumb. Soft catches are SOMETIMES needed, but Pragmatic belaying is essential, which is sounds like the belayer of woman OP has a special crush on was not doing. 

soft cruxwrote:

A soft catch introduces more energy into the system - the belayer jumping adds energy to the falling climber. If you "clip a feature" on the way down you'll hit it even harder with an attempted soft catch.

So I've been thinking about this... AV called it a troll but I'm not sure.

I never took a physics class but here's how I see it. Imagine a climber falling straight down with no swing. Their belayer doesn't jump but just locks off and catches them just at the moment they are about to hit the ground. Close call but all is good.

Now imagine the same fall where the belayer jumps so that they can do a softer catch. The climber would hit the ground this time, right? The belayer goes up more so the climber has to fall down more.

It seems that it is true that there is more energy in a soft catch. The belayer is exerting themselves to do the jump and that exertion is really assisting the fall in a way, not opposing it. Thoughts?

soft cruxwrote:

Cute pictures but they don't illustrate the relevant physics. You cannot illustrate a soft catch with a single snapshot image of a falling climber. The process is dynamic.

Soft catch works because of conservation of angular momentum. Increase the radius (distance from climber to bolt) and the angular velocity (how fast the climber is swinging into the wall) has to decrease. 

Matthew Jaggerswrote:

This has been discussed ad nauseum, but I just wanted to remind all the dudes out there, that slam their lighter, smaller female partners into the wall everytime they fall, that YOU SUCK! If your climber falls, and they audibly smack the wall, you should be apologizing profusely, and swear you'll do better. You should NOT be 1 foot off the ground saying, "good try", "you good?", "you got this next time". And you shouldn't be saying "go for it, im with you", when you really aren't. If you're "with" someone, it means you're paying attention and you'll give them a proper soft catch EVERY fall. 

LADIES, if your partner gives you a hard catch regularly, or even once, you should demand they do better, or tell them you won't climb with them again. You shouldn't be afraid to fall, but I get it when a good number of male belayers don't care about your ankles. 

As you can tell, this sht pisses me off. Learn to give a soft catch, and take the well being of your smaller partners more serious than your fckn bullsht project you're just waiting to get back on. 

Belaying is more important than climbing or sending your proj... so fcking act like it, BRO!

Heather from the east coast... you shouldn't let homeboy belay you anymore, he's fckn going to get you hurt. Check Your Grip is the PERFECT route to fall on, and you shouldn't be getting slammed into the wall with a competent belayer. Dude was about 1 foot off the ground everytime he gave you a hard catch. I almost asked him to stop, but that sht is on you. DEMAND an attentive, good belay (aka "A Good Catch") from everyone you climb with.

Connor Dobsonwrote:

I let my partner deck to preserve the onsight. Fucking hangdogger ethics ruining climbing. 

Someone has to build a deck you don’t wanna pump out doing carpentry work!! Soon every crag will be like crawdad canyon!!

Astrid Reywrote:

How high off the ground should he be?

He needs his balls smashed into the first bolt.

I find it funny (and a little terrifying) that a couple posts with the most likes are saying that soft catches aren’t a thing. Well, I can assure you from anyone one that climbs with people who try hard, that they are. Here are just a few quick points.

1) although the op’s scenario is heavy male vs. light female, it’s about weight difference not gender. That was his point, but he got called out for it so just want to highlight that.

2) soft catch vs. hard catch is NOT a trad vs. sport thing. It’s a steep rock vs. not steep rock thing. I’ve used both catches in both disciplines and everything between those two extremes.

3. Yes, a hard catch can injure someone. I’ve known at least two climbers with busted ankles due to hard catches. On the flip side, I’ve had a handful of hard catches and HAVEN'T been injured. It did make me think twice about falling with that person though.

4) and finally, before you dismiss something because it’s not in your experience or wheelhouse, ask yourself, “Do I know EVERYTHING?”

Cheers!

Josh

Josh Squirewrote:

3. Yes, a hard catch can injure someone. I’ve known at least two climbers with busted ankles due to hard catches. On the flip side, I’ve had a handful of hard catches and HAVEN'T been injured. It did make me think twice about falling with that person though.

Isn't that how Honnold broke his ankles? Taking a massive soft catch off the end of the rope? 

JohnWesely Weselywrote:

You were just climbing with shitty belayers for the first 10 years.

Not at all! (Hi there, early climbing partners, if any of you are reading. I love you!) And like the gentleman who quoted my post above, I can't say I've ever had a problem with how I've been caught, and I'm not particularly heavy at 155 lbs. I maintain that it just isn't a factor in the vast majority of climbing falls. 

phylp phylp wrote:

I don't get why everybody is giving Matthew J. such a hard time.  Yes, I also climbed for about 20 years before ever hearing the term soft catch but as a relatively lightweight woman, I really appreciate my partners who know how to give them NOW when I'm on the type of routes and in the right circumstances where they can make a big difference.  I and my partners have the experience to know when that is and how to give a soft catch.  Some people don't.  Thanks Matthew for caring about this.

Mathew's initial post and tone is that of, well, an asshole. I can appreciate a person who's passionate about x topic but, this isn't passion. This is just meat head anger and chest thumping. He's as bad, or maybe even worse, then the person he claims to be so mad at. Because he should know better to talk to people the way he does, yet he does it anyway and that's kind of a bone headed move; especially since he's suggesting the hard catcher should know better too. 

It's anyone's guess what experience this other climber has, or doesn't have, yet we're all to pass judgement upon him, and on top of it, pass judgment on all the "hard catching dudes" out there too? Seems kind of hypocritical, if you ask me.

Of course, sounds like you happen to mostly agree with him so, maybe you aren't privy to his tone? You can sweep that part of his post under the rug, in exchange for his points that favor your pov, perhaps? Either way, I'm surprised people aren't laying into him even more, he kind of deserves it; most people who don't realize they're being assholes do. 

Also, trolls be a trolling and others be throwing stones in glass houses but, at least on this day, it was Matthew who threw first and therefore it is Matthew who will take the metaphorical tongue lashing dished out to him.

Matthew, don't ask others to do better*, if you yourself aren't willing to do the same. That's what assholes do.

*in regards to hard/soft catch, it's debatable.

Astrid Reywrote:

It seems that it is true that there is more energy in a soft catch. The belayer is exerting themselves to do the jump and that exertion is really assisting the fall in a way, not opposing it. Thoughts?

The belayer jumping allows the person falling to decelerate over a longer period of time because you are unweighting yourself with less initial force against the direction of the fall . You could in theory give a soft catch using a steel cable as your rope if you could jump high enough to bring the falling person to a slow stop.

Think of a car that slowly comes to a stop vs slamming into a concrete barrier. You are trading distance for force or vise versa.