Loose Rock awareness.

 Climbers should be aware that if you drop a rock while climbing it can KILL someone.  You need to take the responsibility to NEVER accidently drop rocks SERIOUSLY.  I arrived at a belay this weekend and there were 2 people from a decending party of 3 at the belay.  The 3rd person was rapelling through a spot that is notoriously loose and knocked down a decent baseball sized rock that missed the 3 of us comfortably but missed my partner by only 2ft. the person who disloged the rock could not see below him but he certainly did know that his 2 partners were below him. Perhaps he was also aware that annother party was below him?   I  calmly commeneted  " whats that all about?  the two kids at the station with me were like, oh it's loose up there like its no big deal.  I bit my toung and dropped the matter in the interest of not putting the buzzkill on everyones great day. The conversation turned to loose rock and the kid who just almost killed my partner admitted to almost killing someone on Canon by dropping a microwave block. 

   This is not a rant at all but an attempt at a learning tool for all of us.   It is a big deal when you drop rocks and there are climbers below you.  99% of the time it can be  avoided.. I knew that was a loose section.  We have done the route a half dozen times and  not dropped rocks. We completed the route and rappeled without dropping any rocks on the party below us. Dropping rocks on other climbers is a big deal. It is a Huge deal. I know its not worth a lecture/ argument out on the cliff but it is certainly worth evaluating how you climb and  what you do to avoid accidently killing someone.    When you encounter loose rock you have to pay attention. You must watch you feet and the rope.  You may need to grab loose rocks with your hand and place it in a safer spot, wedge on the uphill side of a tree or perhaps warn everyone before throwing it in a safe direction. What you DO NOT want to do is have to say I am really sorry I just kicked it accidently with my foot and knocked it off. Think about how that will feel as you try to explain why you killed someone......  Think about that now and try to translate that to  the next time you encounter loose rock in a real climbing situation  and hope that all of us take the time to negotiate that terrain without dumping rocks on the folks below us... 

Good reminder.  I think the best you can do is to politely remind others of the danger of rockfall whenever you see sketchy behavior out in the real world.  Don't be afraid to speak up.  Until you've almost been smashed in the head or committed the crime yourself, it's hard to appreciate how important it is to be careful up there.  Early on, I pulled a shoe-size rock off a climb by accident and it nearly killed my belayer, and I've had stuff come close to hitting me.  Unfortunately, I think it takes a close call before the importance of this subject is drilled into one's head (pun intended).

old topic, current concern

philip bonewrote:

old topic, current concern

Always a concern. Here's an adjacent hot take for ya: telling your partner or even other parties about loose rock/holds is not beta or "talking too much" and should not be frowned upon. I thought that was a given, but apparently I was wrong. 

Cathedral Peak, anyone?  Scary.

If you drop rocks you don't get to climb.

If you can't differentiate between loose and solid rocks, yer gonna die. (or some else is gonna get killed by your hand)

Today's society often raises people into a state of constant victim.  Not responsible for anything.  "If I'm rappelling and a rock is knocked loose, it's not my fault."

People with this attitude should not be rock climbing.

Amen brother Nick.  I think the awareness you mention is the key.  I've seen a lot of folks who just aren't focused on the loose rock issue.  They aren't thinking about where they put their feet, and they sure aren't thinking about what piles of rope on a ledge are doing.  These are the same people who throw rappel ropes down on people leading the pitch below with a three-second warning and absolutely no pause for any response from below.  In the climbing world, this is criminal negligence, but there are no consequences, legal or otherwise, for knocking off rocks that kill or seriously injure people.  Taking the time and making the effort not to bombard those below is a test of character.  Some people don't measure up.  Y'all don't want to be that person.

Nick, you should have gave those boys the scolding they deserve.  No need to be nice when people act with such negligence. 

Old post...but here goes.

Concerning rock which is "notoriously loose":

Sometimes climbers make the choice to travel through the strike zone of a bowling alley instead of taking a safer line. Or not waiting for a threat to pass before moving through a strike zone. They have a responsibility to chose a safer line if available, or wait out a known hazard before continuing. 

Can't speak to the exact nature of Nick's case, just an observation of common issues I see.

Another issue is beta. Climbers below a hazard may not know about the "notoriously loose" area above them. 

And many climbers will take a shortcut above an area where climbers commonly pass. A shortcut that is nearly impossible to safely move through. No matter how carefully you travel, you threaten those below you. They didn't get the beta and/or learn to recognize poor lines of travel. 

And one more common cause of rockfall happens when closely passing other climbers in sketchy loose areas. One party looks up while passing and takes their eyes off the ground while still moving. It is a natural thing to do. 

There are many other examples of poor choices which are easily avoided with experience. Climbers need to be proactive and avoid becoming the threat or the threatened.

This is a good reason to #1- wear a helmet at the base and #2 spend as little time as possible underneath other parties, especially in notoriously loose sections. Yelling ROCK!!! as loud as possible is good too.

Don't show Nick this.

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

 Climbers should be aware that if you drop a rock while climbing it can KILL someone.  You need to take the responsibility to NEVER accidently drop rocks SERIOUSLY.  I arrived at a belay this weekend and there were 2 people from a decending party of 3 at the belay.  The 3rd person was rapelling through a spot that is notoriously loose.

 So you were fully aware that you were climbing below a party of three descending through lots of loose rock, you don’t say anything to the party that accidentally dislodges a rock, then come to the internet to say...

This is not a rant

Hmmm.

Sounds more like you accepted the risk or used poor judgement. 

I'm gonna offer a different opinion: if you don't wanna get pummeled by loose rock, make sure it can't happen to you. I agree that it is nice to not knock rock on others, but it happens as evidenced in this thread. So take some responsibility for yourself. People above you were likely there first, so go home or somewhere else if you don't like that risk. 

If a car stops short on the highway, and you rear end it, the accident is your fault. Similarly, other climbers pose a thread of loose rock, and it is your own responsibility to not get hurt, cause guess what? The other people don't give a shit about you.

J Cwrote:

I'm gonna offer a different opinion: if you don't wanna get pummeled by loose rock, make sure it can't happen to you. 

At least 5 posts directly above yours offer the same opinion. Stay out of the strike zone. You don't walk across a busy highway if you see the big red hand on the crosswalk sign. Climbing 101.

abandon moderation wrote:

So it's solved then, only 1 party at a time on a route. And any adjacent routes where rockfall is possible. And stay off the approach trails, because they usually go under climbs. So if someone is already on the Nose of El Cap it's theirs for the next 5 days or so, and probably avoid being below them for 1/4 mike in any direction. To be safe, maybe 1 party per crag. Just stay home.

I think the consensus is climbers need to be proactive and avoid becoming the threat or the threatened. You can move through a hazard zone but if you are demanding or expecting no hazards then that is the mark of a foolish climber. Hazards define climbing. Both parties have responsibility for their own safety and the safety of others when it comes to rockfall.

Remember, the OP's comment was about an area he knew had "notoriously loose" rock.

Where are y'all climbing that you don't regularly send down rocks? The gym? 

yes the gym

I think there is a drift in the discussion that misses the fact that rockfall caused by climbers is a possible danger on every climb, not just ones known to have loose rock, and that climber awareness is critical in all situations and not just ones with outsize hazards.  It may still be a good idea to avoid climbing under parties, although in some areas that would come with a huge reduction of options.  But climbers also can traverse or rap in from above or otherwise materialize above a party that didn't know they were in the firing line, so it remains the moral obligation of parties to do everything in their power to avoid launching missiles.  Moreover, I think that lessening the imperative to be careful by suggesting that it is the lower party's obligation to avoid the carelessness or incompetence of the upper party is a bad message to promote.

Dakota from North Dakotawrote:

Where are y'all climbing that you don't regularly send down rocks? The gym? 

Uhhh, if you’re “regularly sending down rocks”, you should probably stick to the gym.

Dakota from North Dakotawrote:

Where are y'all climbing that you don't regularly send down rocks? The gym? 

Anyone "regularly sending down rocks" is effing up big-time.

Situational awareness is important for belayers and spectators at single pitch crags also. Congestion and distraction should be avoided.