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Incorrect accident analysis ANA Boulder Canyon pg 49-50
R K wrote: Was thinking the same. I've solo-aided (for practice) a few bolted single.pitch cracks, that are normally climbed as sport climbs. If I popped a piece and got hurt, would be because I failed to clip the bolts, or because my piece popped? It wan't my ego(tism) that made me aid these routes, it was to learn aid tactics. |
R K wrote: I blame the badass Lynn Hill. |
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Long winded post, mea culpa… A little background: I’ve put up a number of sport routes at Rumney. None are “cutting edge,” all are moderate grade, a few are classic, most are not. One thing they all have in common is they are more enjoyable done as a sport climb than they would be as a gear route. Rumney is mostly steep to overhanging schist covered with holds. It’s not “God’s own stone” but realistically, it’s “God’s own choss…” Choss is the reason it was developed as a sport area. Most (but not all…) of the potential gear placements that exist are crap in crap rock. That’s reality. There’s a local who’s taken to repeating some of my routes on gear. Let’s call him “Mr. Local.” Mr. Local and I have never really talked about his motivations, but I’m positive he’s not “making a statement…” I like Mr. Local and think he’s basically a good guy. I know we share a lot of basic values. Mr. Local also climbs well (5.13 and strong…). Most of my routes are 5.11 and easier… (If you’re climbing a trad route way below your limit, the most “bomber” piece of gear you’ll ever place is the knowledge you’re not going to fall….) Since climbing today requires the obligatory spraying about it on social media, Mr. Local is obligated to post every one of my routes he’s done on gear. (It’s the modern “tree falling in the forest” thing. Think: “If someone does a climb and doesn’t spray, did it actually get done???”) Invariably, 3 or 4 people respond with “it’s such a shame a beautiful route like that was ruined with bolts”, “think of the future generations”…, “it’s dumbing things down”…, “LNT…, and (my fave:) “the guy who bolted it is a d!ckless wanker….” To Mr. Local’s credit, he damps down that sort of talk. But, realistically, the only reason Mr. Local ever got on any of those lines is because it was scrubbed and bolted. He (and everyone else, including the critics) would have walked by it, and never given them a second thought. I think Mr. Local knows that and respects it…. However; the clueless who felt the need to negatively comment, don’t know and don’t respect. It took me a while but I finally I figured it out: The critics don’t even know they “don’t know,” and worse, thy don’t care they “don’t know…” As for “respect” for anyone, they don’t have any… It’s sad to say: but this may be the new standard for “critical thinking” in 2021. I don’t know Nick’s motivation for posting. I’ve known Nick for 15 or so years. Even when I don’t agree with him, I’ve always found him to be thoughtful. I’m not sure what's triggered him, but I’d bet he has a reason… ed “‘hater gonna hate, even if they’re too stooopid to know why….” e |
Nick Goldsmithwrote: Well if she proved a point that's more than you've done in this thread. |
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a lot of you guys are getting hung up on gender , thinking I am bashing molly. It dosent matter who the leader is. just call it the leader. its also just a sport climb. not worth getting hurt over. its not an FA. its allready been done. Its not freeing an aid line. My whole beef is that the accident report completly ignored the fact that the best protection on the route was not used. the folks free climbing aid lines in El cap are Not passing up the best protection. If you are climbing in your cruiser zone passing up a bolt dosent matter. If you are climbing at or near your limit skipping a bolt is absolutly a factor. if you skip a bolt and get hurt it absolutly matters. if you skip all the bolts and get hurt but then try to blame the accident on shitty gear failing but not skipping the bolts that is straight up a load of bull. |
Nick Goldsmithwrote: You can keep on banging your drum and I suspect had you framed it as your opinion you would be getting alot less pushback. Some people would still disagree (me included) but it would just be a difference of opinion. Instead you are coming across as a bit of an arse by acting as the arbiter of fact. BTW the reason I disagree is beacuse the failing gear was the cause, whilst at time same time it is also true that it would have been avoided if the bolts had been used. I don't get why you can not see that the two are not mutually exclusive. Or do you want accidents on sports routes to read 'caused by not topropeing due to ego', on trad routes as 'caused by not bolting the route first, due to ego' or on any route as 'caused by not staying in bed that day'? All that said I do think that the accident report should reference that was a sport route, but for context not judgment. |
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I like this thread because it gets me to think philosophically about climbing. What motivates one person can be completely different than what motivates another. Just like you can’t decide how someone should feel. You can't assess how much ego(tism) factors into someone else's decisions. A route isn't a sport-, traditional-, aid-, solo-climb. That is just a shorthand way of saying a route, first/usually climbed and protected using sport, traditional, aiding, practices…. It is just a hunk of rock that has been climbed. I think it is refreshing to be able to walk up to a route and decide for yourself, which style you want to use to tackle it. Most routes are pretty obvious in their style in which they are ascended. Others not so much. There are a lot of people that are highly motivated to use more traditional styles of climbing and can see past the fact that someone else placed bolts on a route. This sometimes (or even often) might be to make a statement, but often just because it is a challenge or fun or motivating. Basically, people can view a climb as a clean slate and choose their style. Molly choose trad (although maybe not traditional in the true sense). I’m guessing she wished she had taken the day off. But she didn’t, she ripped a piece, and that is why she ended up in the hospital. Like others have said, the only way to keep things safe is to just toprope. If a biner comes unclipped or breaks, or a bolt pulls, is the real cause because the route was lead and not toproped? Then basically there is no reason to have an accident report at all, unless it is because a toprope anchor failed. |
Nick Goldsmithwrote: Is climbing a sport climb that can be top roped a deliberate act to make it more dangerous and prove a point? Climbing a top rope that has a nice smooth hiking path to the top a deliberate act to prove a point also? If you fall on that sport climb and injure yourself, is the mode of failure climbing because you wanted to prove a point of not safely walking to the top? |
Is this an assumption on your part, Nick? I reread pages 5 & 6 up to your post above and saw no such “hang up”. A lot of guys? Edit: scanned the rest of the pages - not seeing any evidence indicating the above is more than an assumption on your part. There are different assumptions that could be made about what motivates people to respond. Some cast folks in a worse light. Others, better. Still, it would explain a lot of the disconnect in this thread if things asserted as fact are actually just assumptions. |
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So how does all this fit into the " If you don't like the bolts just don't clip them " statement so frequently espoused? |
Nick Goldsmithwrote: Again, as Helen asked already, why is this so important to you? I still don't get why it matters lol |
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Nick’s butt hurts because his WI 3 solos don’t seem so cool anymore. |
Neil Bwrote: Thread is definitely lacking some INMOPs, imo. |
Nick Goldsmithwrote: Are we reading the same accident report?  |
Bryce Adamsonwrote: 4 pieces ripped? That seems completely insane and the sign of a grievous lack of skill for someone operating at these grades. 1-2 pieces - maybe you’re rolling the dice a bit - but pretty much the entire pitch? That’s just insane. |
Bryce Adamsonwrote: He just wants it to say, ”…because of her ego.” |
Marc Hwrote: “…to prove a point.” |
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The only reason to be caught up on what someone else is doing and why they are doing it is A) it is affecting you B) insecurities Keep beating that dead horse, Nick. The only one that hasn't caught on is you. |
Bryce Adamsonwrote: Purple totem ripped?! How is that possible? They’re 300% safer than a pedestrian cam |
A V wrote: I'll take the hit. :) |
