Buying a guidebook from someone whose ethics are widely in question

Have to admire the irony involved in asking a guidebook publishing ethics question on mountain project.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

I think you are far overestimating how many climbers are truly aware of the situation. 

Overhearing a conversation at the gym: 

Climber 1, "you wanna go to ten sleep this summer, its a great crag in Wyoming"

Climber 2 ," yeah maybe, wasn't there some drama about bolts or something out there?"

Climber 1, "only impacts new routes"

Climber 2, "cool, where do you stay?"

Climber 1, "there are climber specific places to stay."

I then imagine when the went to book a place they didn't really look into who owned the place and may or may not have stayed at the ranch. It honestly doesn't surprise me at all. 

Unfortunately, you are probably correct. Many are unaware/don’t care about how Louie’s actions were/are directly related to the current drama and access issues…and continues to be with his current bolting antics in the Eastern big horns.

The problem is further exacerbated when those individuals stay at the RR and are only spoon fed one side of the conversation.

With that said, if I needed WiFi or to go into town on a daily basis I would probably stay there as well if that was the only option (now that deerhaven doesn’t have WiFi anymore RIP). If you’ve ever talked to Louie though he is extremely personable and a hard person to dislike in person. 

Cherokee Nuneswrote:

Have to admire the irony involved in asking a guidebook publishing ethics question on mountain project.

Go on, please elaborate :-)

A V wrote:

If the manufacturer creates a classic route in an otherwise god forsaken pile of shitty choss - is the climbing community better off for it? If manufacturing a route is unethical on basis of LNT - then is building a trail to the crag, bolting the route, or building out the base of the crag unethical too? You can't say one is ethical and the other isn't. These methods all alter the landscape to maximize our comfort and enjoyment. 

I used to hold steadfast opinions that routes should never be chipped or comfortized, but then I slowly, over time, learned that many of my favorite sport routes were indeed altered in some way to make them as fun as they are. Now my standard is - does the route suck? If it sucks and the movement is shit, and it looks like shit because the rock is beautiful but the manufactured holds look unnatural and shitty - then I think it was a bad idea to chip the route into existence. But if it's barely noticeable, and it makes an otherwise POS wall stand out with fantastic movement on really fun routes, then honestly... not mad about it as long as it wasn't done to an existing route. 

Louie Anderson might be a whipping boy that we turn towards when we're feeling like nuance shouldn't ever be brought up with this issue. We do this while also ignoring that heroes of ours, like Todd Skinner, chipped, comfortized, and drilled countless routes in Wyoming. Because that doesn't go with the climbing hero narrative.

Unpopular opinion - sure, but hangdogging was once unpopular too. 

If it causes areas to shutdown then the people in charge of the the land deem it unethical, and that’s really what matters. I don’t care if you think it’s ethical or not, but if it risks access then it shouldn’t be supported. You can’t have fun routes (manufactured or not) if the place is shut down. In this case people are too focused on “ethics”.

Yes, a difference of opinions on ethics could be argued as the cause of access issues…but at the end of the day, those in charge of land said it’s unethical, therefore those actions should not be supported any longer if you ask me. As far as I know Skinner’s manufacturing didn’t jeopardize any areas. 

Your examples and ideologies totally make sense and I agree with what your saying…until those actions lead to access issues like the ones at hand. 

I sincerely hope no one ever used LNT as an argument against Louie.

A V wrote:

The access issue in Ten Sleep was because of the massive online kerfuffle created by the opponents of the manufacturing. Had they handled it locally/internally - there wouldn't have been that ban. They were a little over the top/dramatic with their response, basically. 

It was exacerbated by mountain project and online forums but this would have happened regardless of any online kerfuffle. You’re there perfect example of an individual who only gathers their information from The RR or one perspective. Neither actions were right and neither action should be commended or supported as both lead to access issues.

The issue at hand was discussed and addressed amongst all parties prior to any shenanigans. However when neither party would budge, actions were taken perceived as the “right move”. I’ve had conversations with both extreme sides of the drama (Louie and Ace amongst others), helped both sides with their respective guidebooks, gone to board meetings, spoken with BHCC members and both were a little over the top due to the others actions….basically. 

A V wrote:

The access issue in Ten Sleep was because of the massive online kerfuffle created by the opponents of the manufacturing. Had they handled it locally/internally - there wouldn't have been that ban. They were a little over the top/dramatic with their response, basically. 

I'm glad you bring up Ray Jardine and the Nose - that is a perfect example of a place where it is messed up to chip imo. Pristine, beautiful granite on one of the most iconic rock formations in the world... such a shame to marr it like that... now chossy obscure limestone on the other hand... I mean, frakenjura is completely chipped and manufactured, and also a world class destination despite looking like garbage aesthetically. No reason that otherwise ugly limestone in the states shouldn't have that same level of fun manufactured movement. Otherwise they'll just be another obscure pile of choss. 

The root of the access issues goes back to Louie manufacturing after being asked not to (and after admitting he took it too far with funky town). So no, it wasn’t due to an online kerfuffle, but rather only brought to the publics attention due to the internet. I don’t support their chopping, padlocking, etc. but had they not done so Louie would have continued to manufacture routes out in the open with no recourse, like right up the middle of slavery wall. At least now he’s moved his antics to the eastern big horns and doing so on state land where he is now facing fines as the state is far less inundated with tasks than the USFS is. There’s far more going on currently than people want to believe and the drama is far from “over” even if it’s not what’s trending on MP.
 

Your argument as to when you can manufacture and when you can’t seems rather unconventional though as it’s based on….aesthetic. I’m curious, who gets to decide what’s aesthetic and what’s not?

The line between chipping and cleaning is often non existent to the outside observer, especially (I imagine) on limestone choss, but in no way could Louie's shit be considered cleaning, and that's why they were bad, imo.

Not Not MP Adminwrote: As far as I know Skinner’s manufacturing didn’t jeopardize any areas. 

Sort of.  Think about Hueco.  There was an initial big stink when there was some gluing and the base of some stuff getting rearranged.

Look hard enough and everyone is a criminal

Tradibanwrote:

You're clipping bolts, ethics are already out the window. Bolting IS chipping.

Climbing is chipping as you wear away flakes and polish the stone.

For us exist is to consume. We can't make our own food like a tree.

Then again, some have empty melons.

Tradiban when did you go to ten sleep and why are you selling the book?

It’s the best book by far on the area to date. 

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

The root of the access issues goes back to Louie manufacturing after being asked not too(and after admitting he took it too far with funky town). So no, it wasn’t due to an online kerfuffle, but rather only brought to the publics attention due to the internet. I don’t support their chopping, padlocking, etc. but had they not done so Louie would have continued to manufacture routes out in the open with no recourse, like right up the middle of slavery wall. At least now he’s moved his antics to the eastern big horns and doing so on state land where he is now facing fines as the state is far less inundated with tasks than the USFS is. There’s far more going on currently than people want to believe and the drama is far from “over” even if it’s not what’s trending on MP.
 

Your argument as to when you can manufacture and when you can’t seems rather unconventional though as it’s based on….aesthetic. I’m curious, who gets to decide what’s aesthetic and what’s not?

This all sounds like very serious biz.

Meanwhile, big oil is pumping poison into the ground water all over the country to get cheap gas for our SUVs and there are lakes of cyanide all over the West and open pits all over Wyoming.

A V wrote:

I'm glad you bring up Ray Jardine and the Nose - that is a perfect example of a place where it is messed up to chip imo. Pristine, beautiful granite on one of the most iconic rock formations in the world... such a shame to marr it like that... now chossy obscure limestone on the other hand... I mean, frakenjura is completely chipped and manufactured, and also a world class destination despite looking like garbage aesthetically. No reason that otherwise ugly limestone in the states shouldn't have that same level of fun manufactured movement. Otherwise they'll just be another obscure pile of choss. 

Though, honestly, I am very hesitant to voice this opinion online - don't want to encourage complete jerries that have absolutely no business being out there. Because I think if somebody were to manufacture routes in rock - they need to have a lot of climbing experience and be proficient in route setting and imagining good climbing movement. If somebody chips a route with shitty movement, or with whack techniques (see the holds bolted to the rock at the Nears in the Gunks) then it's a massive shame and eyesore for everybody. Not only did you permanently alter the rock, you also made a big turd in addition to altering the rock. Ya know?

Whoa, whoa, whoa...Gotta protect my home crag!  For sure, tons of chipping and manufacturing in the earlier (and later) days of development, but that is somewhat less and less...a lot of the work is in the cleaning and removal of death blocks, etc...

I gotta find some pictures of the rock in the Altmulhtal or Donaudauchbruch...especially around Prunn or Essing...some bullet limestone, and aesthetic (great moves on good rock in a pleasing river valley? yessum)  And while some of the 10,000+ routes are pretty ugly, a vast amount have wonderful climbing in some quality forests...

Plus, we both lived in Portland...not every crag can be Madrone, gotta have some Rocky Butte's thrown in there!   

The number one reason you don't want people chipping routes isn't aesthetics, purity, access issues or some kind of greater moral cause. It is because you don't want each person who can't get up a route to alter it. Everything else is secondary to that.  

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

The number one reason you don't want people chipping routes is because you don't want each person who can't get up a route to alter it.

So, buy the book?

And the reason you personally "don't want each person who can't get up a route to alter it"? 

...ethics? selfishness? tradition? asthetics? purity?

As for ethics, I will just point out that the Forest Service got involved because too many climbers in Tensleep were being irresponsible stewards of the environment (from trash to trails), and escalating tensions between climbers. Too many kettles calling the pot black?

Teton Climberwrote:

...ethics? selfishness? tradition? asthetics? purity?

As for ethics, I will just point out that the Forest Service got involved because too many climbers in Tensleep were being irresponsible stewards of the environment (from trash to trails), and escalating tensions between climbers. Too many kettles calling the pot black?

All I am saying is that if we start with the argument, "you shouldn't alter the rock to preserve it for the people after you" that is something people can have a consensus on. People do not have a consensus  on the other reasons as evidenced by AV. 

I agree chipping is often overlooked but I also think it is over estimated. To make two holes that most people could fit their hands in that is probably an entire drill bit. Also if this feature is too difficult for you to climb it is also probably a nightmare to hold on so you also need to put a bolt in. Now you also need a file and patch stuff for the bolt you had to add next to the fake holds. Also the extra time to do all of this when there was probably something easier to the left or right. Finally you know people are also going to freak out if they think you manufactured a hold. It is just too much effort to manufacture a hold these days. 

Sprayloard Overstokerwrote:

This all sounds like very serious biz.

Meanwhile, big oil is pumping poison into the ground water all over the country to get cheap gas for our SUVs and there are lakes of cyanide all over the West and open pits all over Wyoming.

So basic chipping and manufacturing is ok because lots of people have been brutally murdered in the history of the world. Got it. Hopefully your new creations are fun.

A V wrote:

Lol - feel free to make as many flimsy straw men as you want - I won’t waste time arguing with people who blatantly misconstrue my words. 

But you know the difference between a shitty manufactured route and a good one. The shitty ones stand out, look completely out of place, and are rightfully complained about. The good ones - you don’t really notice or particularly suspect the enhancements and you enjoy the movement of the route.

The amount of manufactured holds on Wyoming limestone and Smith tuff is x10 what you would guess.

Publicly - we should probably talk shit and act like it’s the worst thing in the world - to dissuade a Jerry from doing it and creating an atrocity against climbing. But we would be kidding ourselves if we said that we didn’t enjoy manufactured routes as a climbing community. Because we love the good ones and give them four stars on MP while consistently failing to acknowledge that it is manufactured. Many, many shades of grey here.

Though kill the messenger if you want - I’ll volunteer as this thread’s sacrifice. 

A couple of things; 

First off you are and never were a victim here. Nobody needs you be some sort of martyr or a sacrifice, no need to play the victim card. 

Secondly, nobody thus far has misconstrued your words. You literally said that it’s ok to manufacture, chip, glue, etc. a route as long as the rock looks shitty (again, according to who?). You also said that the person doing so should have route setting experience and not a jerry. Where was this misconstrued?

Thirdly, have you climbed at Funky Town? The routes on that wall, as fun as some routes were, it was undeniably noticeable to anyone who has outdoor climbing experience on limestone/dolomite that holds were heavily altered. 

Fourthly, the difference between a route with 4 stars that was drilled in the 80’s or 90’s is usually viewed  differently than one drilled in 2018. Irrelevent none the less, but typically (as a whole) routes are more frowned upon now compared to decades ago.

I totally agree with you that an experienced developer can make a manufactured route “blend in” and can do so in an inconspicuous kind of way (this is one of the reasons why Louie’s more isolated routes went unnoticed for a season or two). However, Funky Town was not that. I will say that many of Louie’s routes I’ve done that are/were blatantly manufactured were quite fun, and it doesn’t really matter where your ethics lay as long as it does not jeopardize access….which is the only reason why we are having this discussion right now.