Dedicated PAS or sling?

Connor Dobsonwrote:

I just use draws for sport climbing, you generally don't need a sling for 99% of sport climbing.

You can rodeo sling your way up a route!

I like the Metolius alpine PAS for long technical descents. I store it on the back of my harness in a bundle when I'm not using it. Sometimes I use it in place of a double-length runner to make anchors on the way up.

J Bwrote:

I like the Metolius alpine PAS for long technical descents. I store it on the back of my harness in a bundle when I'm not using it. Sometimes I use it in place of a double-length runner to make anchors on the way up

Excellent! If using for a 2 bolt anchor, clip the two centered loops (not just one) as your masterpoint. This makes the masterpoint itself redundant. And as Amy and a few others said up top, the PAS still counts as an extra sling for extensions on the way up. So, if you're counting draws, take one off your rack if you take a PAS. I always appreciate watching my follower's face as they clean the extended PAS midway up a route. For multiple rappel situations I prefer either a dynamic 'PAS' (metolius dynamic PAS or Beal/Tendon Dynamic Sling with knots/shelf) or a regular dyneema/nylon PAS so I can adjust the length to be comfy for the entirety. Anyways, all manufactured PAS and all DIY PAS are also slings and anchors. You can use whatever you want and eventually you will find out what you prefer. Don't need to spend $40 right away.

I sometimes use a Purcell Prusik as a PAS. Like it for a number of reasons and have also used it as a variable length runner on the way up. I have never fallen on it. I have always assumed that since it is used in rescue situations with greater weight, it should be no problem (even a poor man's Screamer?) maybe just once. Does anyone have any actual tests/numbers/etc to back that up, or am I gunna die? Nevermind.

with regards to cleaning sport climbs, a sling and PAS are both irrelevant. Kyle Tarry hit the nail on the head with his excellent link.

I like the idea of the infinite halving of the strength of the sling. After 50,000 knots the sling will only hold…a microgram?

I just finished an SPI course with the AMGA. I always use a PAS… my instructor hated it and continuously told me to use a sling as a tether any time he gave me feedback even though there is no “AMGA way.” I still use a PAS. 

A PAS is pointless extra faff anytime you're tied into the rope... And the people who are actually doing for-real "long and complicated rappels" (i.e., in the mountains) have shed that single-use weight long ago and get by just fine using a sling as an extension/tether.

I do own a Petzl connect adjust, but only because it's nice to have when working at the top of a cliff to move top rope anchors onto adjacent climbs. In this very specific application, I appreciate it for its dynamic properties and adjustability. But if I'm doing literally anything else, the PAS sits at the bottom of my cragging pack.

Kyle Tarrywrote:

It's a bit tangential, but it seems worth linking to this great ACC article, which describes a standard and simple way to convert to lower at an anchor, without any specialized tools or extra redundant connections, while staying on belay the whole time:

https://americanalpineclub.org/resources-blog/2016/3/15/5ipkouk0id07cgc3dqks4fljnsgnx6

This process simplifies things quite a bit, and make make a PAS or dedicated sling tether unnecessary for the majority of single pitch sport climbing situations.

You don't need a PAS or a sling!

>> Link to article that says "Step 1: Clip in with a quickdraw"

And if you don't have a quickdraw because you TRed the route after someone already cleaned the lead draws... remember to bring a PAS or sling!

There are pros and cons to having a dedicated tether, and they have been discussed ad nauseam. But the article has it backwards on their main argument. Having a tether definitely is the simplest approach. You always have it, you always use it the same way, and you don't have to think about what gear you might need or have to bring specifically to tether in any particular situation.

soft cruxwrote:

You don't need a PAS or a sling!

>> Link to article that says "Step 1: Clip in with a quickdraw"

And if you don't have a quickdraw because you TRed the route after someone already cleaned the lead draws... remember to bring a PAS or sling!

There are pros and cons to having a dedicated tether, and they have been discussed ad nauseam. But the article has it backwards on their main argument. Having a tether definitely is the simplest approach. You always have it, you always use it the same way, and you don't have to think about what gear you might need or have to to bring specifically to tether in any particular situation.

The simplest system is the one that avoids non-essential faff. 

The only thing on my tie in points is the rope. The only thing on my belay loop is the device. No PAS thong, no fighting with extra cord around my waist getting caught over/under gear. 

It's way more streamlined to just know how to use your gear, even if that means remembering to bring a couple of quickdraws in this very specific scenario you've described. In (almost) all other cases a PAS is a crutch that will eventually be a hindrance to anyone who wants to progress beyond cleaning TR anchors.

johndricowrote:

The simplest system is the one that avoids non-essential faff. 

The only thing on my tie in points is the rope. The only thing on my belay loop is the device. No PAS thong, no fighting with extra cord around my waist getting caught over/under gear. 

It's way more streamlined to just know how to use your gear, even if that means remembering to bring a couple of quickdraws in this very specific scenario you've described. In (almost) all other cases a PAS is a crutch that will eventually be a hindrance to anyone who wants to progress beyond cleaning TR anchors.

None of the gear we bring along is essential, but some people have this weird hate for the PAS.

a PAS is a convenient luxury, analogy is air conditioning in your car…  not required, reduces fuel economy, but makes you comfortable-especially on longer multi pitch routes.  Yes you can use just the rope or even a standard sling with knots… And honestly, for newer climbers no need to get just yet.  Be safe.  

Pete Swrote:

a PAS is a convenient luxury, analogy is air conditioning in your car…  not required, reduces fuel economy, but makes you comfortable-especially on longer multi pitch routes.  Yes you can use just the rope or even a standard sling with knots… And honestly, for newer climbers no need to get just yet.  Be safe.  

I actually think it's more like bolting a spoiler onto your Honda Civic. To the untrained eye it might look faster, but in reality it's just adding drag.

This summer I watched some poor shmuck get his PAS thong hooked onto a quickdraw as he tried to climb past. Luckily he noticed and was able to downclimb to a stable stance and fix it... But I was totally expecting him to bounce test his scrotum.

That embarassing situation could have easily been avoided if he just learned the handshake clove: https://youtu.be/tS9ewu_69_A

johndricowrote:

I actually think it's more like bolting a spoiler onto your Honda Civic. To the untrained eye it might look faster, but in reality it's just adding drag.

This summer I watched some poor shmuck get his PAS thong hooked onto a quickdraw as he tried to climb past. Luckily he noticed and was able to downclimb to a stable stance and fix it... But I was totally expecting him to bounce test his scrotum.

That embarassing situation could have easily been avoided if he just learned the handshake clove: https://youtu.be/tS9ewu_69_A

Good story. I have a similar one. 

Once I saw some poor shmuck pull a sling off his shoulder and girth hitch it to his harness as tether before doing a rappel. Actually I've seen that more times than I can count. But boy, they sure did get up that route faster without the weight of that extra sling and carabiner!

But it is true that the PAS is made of material that is 37 times more likely to snag than any of the other dozen or more pieces of gear that are on the harness at any time.

It's also true that anyone using a PAS does not know how to tie a clove hitch or is not capable of leaving the PAS behind on climbs where they do want to be lighter and know they won't need it.

Now that I think about it, it's an amazing piece of equipment. It might be the only piece of equipment we carry that has a profound emotional effect on people that you aren't even climbing with.

JonasMRwrote:

The good thing about a dedicated PAS is that you can hang your radio off it. The only downside is it kind of gets in the way when I tie in with a bowline. 

You can also tie up your crag dog or hang your Bluetooth speaker from it. Maybe a hammock too. 

Is today’s Pee Wee Playhouse word of the day “faff”? I’d like to point out that climbing is non-essential, maybe that will help recalibrate the faff-ster’s apparent sense of outrage.

Has anyone seen a picture or video of a pro climber, guide, or super experienced climber use a PAS for anything but rappelling?

I can't think of any.. 

Learn to use the rope. Ditch the PAS thong

Jeremy Baumanwrote:

Has anyone seen a picture or video of a pro climber, guide, or super experienced climber use a PAS for anything but rappelling?

I can't think of any.. 

Learn to use the rope. Ditch the PAS thong

You’re “right”, 15 pitches up with rain/sleet coming in I should definitely not speed up my rap system and use a pas… LMAO. While you’re still messing with tie/thread/untie/tie on pitch 12, I’ll be safe on the ground, no epic.  Climb on my friend. 

Pete Swrote:

You’re “right”, 15 pitches up with rain/sleet coming in I should definitely not speed up my rap system and use a pas… LMAO. While you’re still messing with tie/thread/untie/tie on pitch 12, I’ll be safe on the ground, no epic.  Climb on my friend. 

You're missing the point. As folks have pointed out in this thread, a PAS could embarrassingly snag and is not used in photoshoots of professional climbers. They are also often not of a color that matches one's pants. As climbers we should always strive to be fashion forward and focus on looking good above all else. Utility is for gumbies.

how does anyone do even 5 pitches without a chair?!?! Like if we talking luxury bring a chair!