Easy Daisy vs FiFi vs Petzl Evolv Adjust

Oh jeez! Are you a total friggen beginner Kevin!!!!!

Christian Heschwrote:

who the fugg puts lockers as the capture biner? Buncha gumbies around here, these yahoos don't seem to know anything about aid...

(serious part, the evolv adjust is the shiznit - camp Dyon biners for the connection are even more the shiznit)

Kevin is so far from a beginner calling him one is ignorant.  Unless done so in jest or when commenting about his understanding of politics.   Wahhhaa!!!

My ranking: Easy Daisy < Evolv Adjust < Yates adjustable.

Current setup: Two Yates adjustables + Kong adjustable fifi.

Adjustability is only for maneuverability at belays.

If you are constantly adjusting your daisies on lead (overhangs/traverses excluded) you're doing it wrong.

Blake Woldwrote:

My ranking: Allfifi > Evolv Adjust > Yates adjustable.

Current setup: No daisies + Allfifi.

FIFY

Skot Richardswrote:

Kevin is so far from a beginner calling him one is ignorant.  Unless done so in jest or when commenting about his understanding of politics.

Gawddammit skot… git yer damn sarcasm meter checked!!!

My ranking….
Alfifi > Kong adjustable > fixed length fifi

Current set up…. 

Lead- no daisies, Alfifi 

Clean- SWG adjustable daisies, binerless jugs.

Alfifi + no daisies is definitely the state-of-the-art paradigm for speed and efficiency.

For those who have led hard aid with this setup: how do you bounce test in a string of marginal placements?

Have I taught myself a poor technique by relying too much on daisy testing when things get heady?

Blake Woldwrote:Have I taught myself a poor technique by relying too much on daisy testing when things get heady?

No.

Blake Woldwrote:

Alfifi + no daisies is definitely the state-of-the-art paradigm for speed and efficiency.

For those who have led hard aid with this setup: how do you bounce test in a string of marginal placements?

Have I taught myself a poor technique by relying too much on daisy testing when things get heady?

Bounce testing should be body-in-the-ladder attached to the piece. I've never been a fab of daisy bouncing. For hard aid one will have a progression of testing, foot kick, bouncing with one foot on the new piece and one foot on the previous piece, to full on bouncing depending upon the placement. 

The statement “should” implies that one method is correct and the other is not.

foot bounce testing has its place, as does daisy, know how to do them both and when to do what one is the ideal approach.

I would prefer the foot bounce traversing or working a horizontal roor.

I would prefer the daisy test if I am working extremely reachy stuff and could not afford to blow it while standing in the top step of my lower ladder (so I would walk low in that ladder and use the daisy, preparing to absorb the force when the upper gear fails the test). I would also opt for the daisy test if I’m working true expanding systems, top daisy tight as I nail the new pin in, ready for the lower one to blow as I’m opening up the system.

More reasons could be added to either list.

Kristoffer Wickstromwrote:

The statement “should” implies that one method is correct and the other is not.

foot bounce testing has its place, as does daisy, know how to do them both and when to do what one is the ideal approach.

I would prefer the foot bounce traversing or working a horizontal roor.

I would prefer the daisy test if I am working extremely reachy stuff and could not afford to blow it while standing in the top step of my lower ladder (so I would walk low in that ladder and use the daisy, preparing to absorb the force when the upper gear fails the test). I would also opt for the daisy test if I’m working true expanding systems, top daisy tight as I nail the new pin in, ready for the lower one to blow as I’m opening up the system.

More reasons could be added to either list.

Great points all 

I’m an aider foot-leg bounce kind of guy. I’m only 6’ so  on reachy top step placements I’ve never had an issue with being in the bottom step of the high piece and moving down the sub step on the lower piece.  

same height, different experience.

im sure your a totem cam kinda guy, does that excuse you from ever placing a stopper?

The original question was about being disadvantaged when climbing “heady” stuff. 

My point is to have less options of techniques is the disadvantage.

Really if your not blowing it on “heady” stuff, your doing it right, no matter what way you slice it.

  Daisy Bouncer 

At the end of the day (route), if your technique doesn’t unduly slow you down, and it’s a technique that you are comfortable with, then that is the technique you should use. 

When I was 14 and sawing 'pitons' out of wooden shelf material to traverse the eaves along my parents' house (sketchy placements: a series of those pitons between the shingles and the sheathing), I made myself aiders by knotting 1" flat webbing into something resembling the Forrest (?) etriers I admired in the local climbing store. The loops were held open by running the flat webbing through an 8" piece of tubular webbing. I also tied a fifi hook into the top where the standard method is to place a 'biner. I had a leash for each aider tied into the top hole of the fifi. As I transferred my weight to the upper aider, I could just tug the leash to retrieve the lower aider, no awkward reaching down to unclip it. 

As best I can recall, I would rest by clipping my harness (25' of 1" tubular with tied leg loops) in directly to my "protection". Definitely figuring things out on the fly. Happy to have survived... 

Forty years later, it occurred to me: maybe that wasn't such a bad system (the leashed fifi on the aider part). The drawbacks as I see it are (a) no wild bounce-testing and (b) just how vigorously should you bounce a fifi?!

Pete Nelsonwrote:

Forty years later, it occurred to me: maybe that wasn't such a bad system (the leashed fifi on the aider part). The drawbacks as I see it are (a) no wild bounce-testing and (b) just how vigorously should you bounce a fifi?!

You were on to something, but in a different form: https://warriorsway.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Climbing_070_CL_NOV11.pdf 

(Available nine years later in non-PDF form: https://www.climbing.com/skills/tech-tip-aid-yosemite-secret-weapon-2/ )

I am pretty new to aid climbing, my partner and I that are learning together and just did South Face WC. I am currently using an Alfrifi with no daisies, I’ll admit that on pitches like 4&5 on SF I got wimpy and put the daisies on, but I can definitely tell that it’s faster and smoother to lead without them. My question is if I plan on aiding with the alfrifi and no daisies would I benefit from adjustable daisy for jugging? I currently have unadjustable daisies and was planning on upgrading to the petzl evolv. 

Skot Richardswrote:

Hell yes!!!   I love it!!   

I don’t aid climb yet but I have used Petzl Ascenders a lot with SAR and playing around.   I have never had one open up on me.   Has anyone ?   Sorry to change the subject 

Joseph, the evolv adjust is great for jugging, especially in conjunction with the petzl adjustable stirrups. Way faster than figuring out the optimal length on regular daisies.

P4 of SF WC is def a great place for an Alfrifri, though the evolv adjust seems to work just as well (and the lower connection will release easily after you cinch up on the upper connection), in my limited experience. Also nice for that small roof on P5, though fifi-ing in is not completely necessary on that move, especially if you have height.

Biggest problem I find with the evovl adjust is "what do I do with it?" when you're not using it. I'm still working on figuring that part out, especially the tails. Currently I try to always have a 12-16L pack on, and clip the biners to a small biner on the shoulder strap, at sternum height. This keeps it from faffing with my gear on harness, as I don't use gear slings. However, the tails are still problematic, and I'm still refining what might be the best way to keep the whole system clear of my harness, without creating even more headaches.