Is the world's best climber a dodgy belayer? ADAM!!!

Kees van der Heiden wrote:

The idea with the new method to give out rope quickly, by pressing with your thumb on the lever while resting your index finger under the ridge on the right side of the grigri, is that your grip on the lever is so weak that it will be ripped from under your thumb as soon as someone falls. That, and you still hold on to the brakeside of the rope with your right hand, being able to brake there too.

https://vimeo.com/206029975#t=50s

How "new" is this? I learned this method at the crag when I started climbing 5 years ago, so I assume my teachers had been doing it for a bit, too. 

J P wrote:

How "new" is this? I learned this method at the crag when I started climbing 5 years ago, so I assume my teachers had been doing it for a bit, too. 

It's at least described in the German Alpine Club magazine Panorama in 2010. It was then called the "Gaswerk methode", named after a climbing gym in Zurich, Switserland, which was named the Gaswerk.

Lena chita wrote:

 because years of experience do count. 

Right - the pro climbers make their own odds - when you flip a coin 3x and get heads 3x - there is a 100% chance of getting heads on the 4th try - but only for them.

No jokes about boulderer's sucking at roped climbing?

Kees van der Heiden wrote:

Left or right handed, in the video in the OP he certainly doesn't have his left hand on the brakestrand. He grabs around the grigri with his left hand, fingers under the grigri, thumb on top to push down the lever. No hand on the brakestrand at all.

100% correct Kees. I've seen 4 people dropped due to brake hand issued. 3 ATCs, 1 Grigri. The Grigri-drop was a husband, who dropped his wife in a gym. She had bought him the grigri as a present. No joking.

Not only are Adam's four fingers in the wrong place and holding the wrong thing, even this thumb is in the wrong place. The thumb more effective and safest if it is between the live rope and belayer's body (at the back). Part of the Grigri 2019's design changed the plate to make this easier for the thumb to reach accross. It is slightly more difficult to defeat the cam with the thumb at the back. It just rolls off when the Grigri is pulled upwards and forwards during a fall. Try it. I own and have tested to failure every version of the Grigri (except the plus in toprope mode). The Madrock Life Guard is a different device, but yes, the principle is the same. I'm sure the cam can be made to fail. How do I know? Because Mad Rock doesn't state it is hands free. The Madrock Safeguard is the same device in black but without a cam spring. It's the spring, and how tightly it is sprung, which makes lead belaying possible without it locking immediately. In my local gym we once carried out some testing on a lead simulation using a grigri with a broken spring. This makes the grigri impossibly grabby. Yet, with the correct cam thumbing method it was possible to pay out slack very easily. With practice we were able to lead belay even using a Petzl Grion (GG 1 with spring for positioning). The current method, recommended by Petzl, works on all devices. The safest method is also the most effective for paying out slack fast. To me Adam's body language in the entire video show that he is just about managing to enough slack out fast enough. He's probably great with an ATC or an Italian hicht (munter).

Is he a bad guy? Not in the least! I'm a fan of his climbing. He seems like a decent guy. Is he an unsafe belayer? Yes. Is he a bad example? Very much so, especially because the point of his videos is talk about good belaying. I think it's a problem to (falsely) put out the perception that a good climber is automatically a good belay. The perception is out there for sure. He just needs to take 2 minutes to learn the technique. 

My question in the OP was: is nobody telling him because he's Adam Ondra? The answer is for a small part yes. It appears that some would not tell him because they cannot spot incorrect technique, while others would make incomplete inferences based on other similar devices they used. Some don't care at all. Plenty just see what they want to see. 

"it's a left hand thing"...
"it's the old method"...
"somehow I think he'll keep the leader off the ground regardless"...
"I trust him anyway"
"what works with a Lifeguard will work with a grigri"

Many of the instructional videos for the grigri don't show how the device is being held from the underside. A grigri is not held, it pinched. It's lip rests on the index finger while the cam is thumbed and the dead rope is held in four remaining finger. With the camera on the top this isn't clear enough. Petzl's latest video tries to rectify this somewhat.

Another example of Adam's bad GriGri belay. 

https://youtu.be/pyq-_9bwj-M?t=21

21st second of video.

Noel Z wrote:

Adam's at it again. 

https://youtu.be/pyq-_9bwj-M?t=21

21st second of video.

This video is 3 years old.

MattB wrote:

Dumb question: can a belayer really defeat the cam as the leader falls? I've only heard of the 'lowering w/o brake hand on rope' accidents.

Informed answer: yes.  I've seen someone get dropped that way.  Fortunately she wasn't majorly injured (still signficiantly though) considering her 45' groundfall...

Seriously Moderate Climber wrote:

Informed answer: yes.  I've seen someone get dropped that way.  Fortunately she wasn't majorly injured (still signficiantly though) considering her 45' groundfall...

Someone recently posted a pretty nice YouTube video of a guy testing this (guy sounds like he has a German or Swiss accent?). He had a climber take a bunch of falls while pinching the Grigri, with a backup belayer. It was actually pretty cool to visually see how much longer the falls were when someone held the cam on the Grigri open.

csproul wrote:

Someone recently posted a pretty nice YouTube video of a guy testing this (guy sounds like he has a German or Swiss accent?). He had a climber take a bunch of falls while pinching the Grigri, with a backup belayer. It was actually pretty cool to visually see how much longer the falls were when someone held the cam on the Grigri open.

Hard is Easy did it, it's wild:

Also, in previous videos, Ondra has specifically said his girlfriend (fiance?) is the better belayer because he doesn't do it as much, so I dunno why we're expecting him to be great at that side of things.

Mx Amie wrote:

Hard is Easy did it, it's wild:

Also, in previous videos, Ondra has specifically said his girlfriend (fiance?) is the better belayer because he doesn't do it as much, so I dunno why we're expecting him to be great at that side of things.

First of all, to all of you making utube vids to make a point, make them short and to the point, nobody got time for that.

Second, I am astounded that this is news to people, the gri has been dropping people since it came out. 

Tradiban wrote:

First of all, to all of you making utube vids to make a point, make them short and to the point, nobody got time for that.

Second, I am astounded that this is news to people, the gri has been dropping people since it came out. 

The youtube algorithm wants a word with you.

Ryan Never climbs wrote:

adam can belay me any time he wants 

I'd allow my daughter to date Billy Cosby. No problem... he's famous.

The worst belayers I've ever seen are *mostly* in two distinct categories:

Absolute crushers that can mono one arm pullup on credit cards and...

Brand new climbers.

Interesting phenomenon.  Horseshoe theory anyone?

MattB wrote:

Dumb question: can a belayer really defeat the cam as the leader falls? 

Yes.  Ashima got dropped by her dad not too long back (I think it was like 30' in a gym) because he overrode the cam.

Mx Amie wrote:

I dunno why we're expecting him to be great at that side of things.

Really? The guy is offering advice on belaying! See the OP.
What's next, celibate priests offering family planning advice? 

Stefano... textbook.

There is a wild level of presumption in this thread. You think Adam Ondra doesn’t know how to belay? Really? Did it cross your mind that he’s belaying professional climbers who would rather take a higher risk belay style than get short roped? Grabbing the grigri like that is more dangerous, yes, but it more or less prevents you from short roping. He’s a pro, he can weigh risk and reward. He’s done this all his life.

Echoing Ryan, he can belay me anytime he wants.

Weston S wrote:

There is a wild level of presumption in this thread. 

lol, yeah

You think Adam Ondra doesn’t know how to belay?

Just about everyone that causes a car accident knows how to drive.

 Did it cross your mind that he’s belaying professional climbers who would rather take a higher risk belay style than get short roped?

No. Because it's not at all difficult to belay properly with no risk of short roping.

 Grabbing the grigri like that is more dangerous, yes, but it more or less prevents you from short roping. 

Totally unnecessary tradeoff.

Echoing Ryan, he can belay me anytime he wants.

I don't think Ondra is going to be offering any of us a belay. You might want to consider doing the same.

Now let's try that again, starting with "You think John Long doesn't know how to tie in?" ...

Alright. I gotta get off the internet for awhile. Imo, this thread is about feeling superior to the world’s greatest climber more than it is about safety.

The man also ties in with a bowline and skips bolts. More dangerous, yes. Necessary? I’m not sure, because I’m not a 5.15 climber. I’ll let him figure that out. 

P.S. I would never do any of the above. I’d never belay like this. But I am not Adam Ondra.

Weston S wrote:

Alright. I gotta get off the internet for awhile. Imo, this thread is about feeling superior to the world’s greatest climber more than it is about safety.

The man also ties in with a bowline and skips bolts. More dangerous, yes. Necessary? I’m not sure, because I’m not a 5.15 climber. I’ll let him figure that out. 

P.S. I would never do any of the above. I’d never belay like this. But I am not Adam Ondra.

You should spend a few moments trying to understand that ropes, belay devices, and the laws of physics don't care about climbing grades.