Why Not Top Belay/Retrievable Rappel off a Beckett (actually a Blackwall) Hitch?

And I thought I'd seen it all...

Tradibanwrote:

The community has spoken, this is unsuitable for rock climbing.

I'm pleased to meet the Fuhrer of rock climbing.  I'll keep doing my own testing if it pleases you.

Eric Mosswrote:

…I'll keep doing my own testing if it pleases you.

If you do “rappel tests” with that setup, I have a feeling you won’t be reporting the results.   Although we may all read about the results

Mark Pilatewrote:

If you do “rappel tests” with that setup, I have a feeling you won’t be reporting the results.   Although we may all read about the results

Well that's the question, isn't it?  Obviously there are pitfalls with this method, and any method.  I'm going to use backups in my experiment.  I'm more worried about getting it to release than getting it to hold, that's one thing on which I agree with Taliban.  

I think this is appropriate for this thread - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8Ute5c2BVk ( FiFi hook/bungee rappel) 

amariuswrote:

I think this is appropriate for this thread - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8Ute5c2BVk ( FiFi hook/bungee rappel) 

When he was walking back toward the edge I was cringing that he’d unweight the rope for a second and then fall. This is almost as scary as the op’s idea. I could see an application in canyoneering, but for rock… scary! 

I'm not at all unusual in this respect. But after more than 50 years of climbing, of all types, on several continents - never needed anything like this. And you're not likely to get any support by using illogical, self-contradictory ideas.

Barry Mwrote:

Who in their right mind would use either of those “methods”?!?!?!?!

A totally clueless individual,one who fancies themselves as intelligent.A solution for nothing, searching for praise.

In case some newer climbers come across this thread and think it is a solution to an otherwise unsolvable emergency problem (making a retrievable, full length rappel with only one rope with no possibility of making an intermediate anchor) I'll just remind everyone you can make a biner-block rappel (one resource about it here: caves.org/section/vertical/…) with a pull cord of basically anything in a very safe fashion. In addition to the various slings/cord you have, you can use a daisy chain of cams, jackets, pants, backpack straps, part of the main rope you don't need to reach the next station, etc. Don't try this Beckett Hitch in an emergency situation...

I've occasionally used the biner-block technique to bail off climbs requiring a 80 with a 70 (had ~10 meters of cordelette).

Mark Pilatewrote:

If you do “rappel tests” with that setup, I have a feeling you won’t be reporting the results.   Although we may all read about the results

At least we'll have this thread to explain why there's an unknotted, undamaged rope with the body.

Had work this meme in from last night’s game…

@Eric Moss, I think it would be in everyone's best interested if you deleted this thread. 

Ashley actually discusses this question in his canonical Book of Knots.  What he calls a "Precipice Knot" is a Slippery Hitch with an overhand on the tail; essentially, this is just a single hitch, relying upon friction between the strands of rope and between the rope and anchor (carabiner, tree, cleat, etc).  In dire circumstances I suppose try this as a retrievable rappel anchor, but it would have to be pretty dire.  (It would be better with a good, fuzzy one-inch hemp rope...)

We might also note that he describes the Becket Hitch (Ashley #1900) as a sheet bend tied into a spliced eye; that's close but not exactly what is shown in the OP.  I think what is shown in the original post is more properly a Blackwall Hitch (Ashley #1875).

Carry on... and be safe out there!

swm

SW Marlattwrote:

Ashley actually discusses this question in his canonical Book of Knots.  What he calls a "Precipice Knot" is a Slippery Hitch with an overhand on the tail; essentially, this is just a single hitch, relying upon friction between the strands of rope and between the rope and anchor (carabiner, tree, cleat, etc).  In dire circumstances I suppose try this as a retrievable rappel anchor, but it would have to be pretty dire.  (It would be better with a good, fuzzy one-inch hemp rope...)

We might also note that he describes the Becket Hitch (Ashley #1900) as a sheet bend tied into a spliced eye; that's close but not exactly what is shown in the OP.  I think what is shown in the original post is more properly a Blackwall Hitch (Ashley #1875).

Carry on... and be safe out there!

swm

Good observation.  Thanks.  The Blackwall Hitch it is.

Here's an improvement to the belay concept and perhaps the rappel concept (hand on load strand)

Let the salt flow!

When do we ask the mods to move this to the accident forum? 

M Appelquist wrote:

Just how stupid are you?

Please keep testing, wait to report until you have had a few failures (note above you will have a backup, most sensible thing you have posted in this thread)

Guys, it's just a sick and twisted troll. Be calm.

  Life is worth morethan a bit of gear or rope.   Why even use this unless grimmest of situations? By sharing you are putting others at risk as well.  

Something of this sort was how Randall Grandstaff, an extremely experienced climber, fell to his death iirc.

Here's an improvement to the belay concept and perhaps the rappel concept (hand on load strand).

In this case, aka bad added to very bad.