How bad is it for your rope to jug up with an ascender or microtraxion?

i had to jug up the last 12-15 feet of an 80ft route we were top roping as I was pumped and my hands just could not get set in this flaring crack. So I used my micro traxion and double length sling to jug up the line and clean the 2 draws That were used for the top rope set up. I am wondering how bad this was for my rope. I assume I should’ve used a prusik instead now reflecting back on it but the micro was quick and readily available at the time I did this. Will this lead to a severely weakened rope in the feet that  I used the micro?

Ray Lovpalwrote:

i had to jug up the last 12-15 feet of an 80ft route we were top roping as I was pumped and my hands just could not get set in this flaring crack. So I used my micro traxion and double length sling to jug up the line and clean the 2 draws That were used for the top rope set up. I am wondering how bad this was for my rope. I assume I should’ve used a prusik instead now reflecting back on it but the micro was quick and readily available at the time I did this. Will this lead to a severely weakened rope in the feet that  I used the micro?

It doesn't harm the rope any more than regular belaying. If you jug alot you will get some extra fuzziness but that is only cosmetic. 

Not a concern AT ALL. What you did is exactly what those ascending devices are made for.

Damage to a rope while jugging on it typically comes from the rope running over an edge. The repeated motion of jugging on a rope that is not moving as it would while climbing can concentrate damage to one spot. I’ve seen a rope worn through from one ascent/jugging of the rope on a poorly placed fixed line. The damage rarely comes from the device/hitch used to ascend, but is usually a consequence of the rope sawing on rock.

After over 50 full pitches of jugging, you will see the sheath being milked towards the end of the rope, which makes it harder to feed in a belay device. A single pitch of jugging can't possibly be noticeable,  except for sharp edges. A sharp edge gave me a core shot in a single pitch of jugging once. Watch for those edges and try to avoid bouncing too much.

Thank you all! I really appreciate the feedback and i am now even more aware that i must try to to never let my rope get weighted and move over a sharp edge. Just wanted to make sure that any damage to the rope left by a progress capture device wouldn’t posed and concern going forward 

Sounds like you done good.  Interesting that you had rope-ascending tools with you for a TR.  If the TR is set up correctly, with the moving rope below or away from any edges, the non-moving rope should not be damaged if you weight it.

Did you try grabbing the belayer's side of the toprope to hoist yourself up by pulling on it and yelling, "Take!  Take!"?   2:1 mechanical advantage, belayer pulling, semi-erotic pelvic thrusts towards the sky (it works!) will elevate you without deploying an ascender and sling.  

Yannick Gingraswrote:

After over 50 full pitches of jugging, you will see the sheath being milked towards the end of the rope, which makes it harder to feed in a belay device. 

This is completely incorrect. I've had well over 50 pitches jugged on my main wall rope just this year (and it's seen  pretty consistent jugging use in the previous couple of years) and it's still chugging along without any sheath slippage or even fuzziness. 

Mack Johnsonwrote:

Sounds like you done good.  Interesting that you had rope-ascending tools with you for a TR.  If the TR is set up correctly, with the moving rope below or away from any edges, the non-moving rope should not be damaged if you weight it.

Did you try grabbing the belayer's side of the toprope to hoist yourself up by pulling on it and yelling, "Take!  Take!"?   2:1 mechanical advantage, belayer pulling, semi-erotic pelvic thrusts towards the sky (it works!) will elevate you without deploying an ascender and sling.  

What is moving and non-moving rope? When TRing with a partner, one side of the rope is moving up and the other side is moving down.

There is no mechanical advantage by pulling on the belayer's side of the rope.

FrankPSwrote:

There is no mechanical advantage by pulling on the belayer's side of the rope.

Absolutely there is. The climber gets a 2:1 and anything the belayer can pull adds to that.

Gunkiemikewrote:

Absolutely there is. The climber gets a 2:1 and anything the belayer can pull adds to that.

If I set up a toprope and tie a 100 lb. weight to both ends, which side has the advantage? If I tie a 100 lb. weight to one side, I have to pull down with a hundred pounds of force to lift the weight (ignoring the friction through the pulley), right? Or wrong?

I could be wrong here but I thought the change of direction at the top over the pulley (carabiners at the top) added no mechanical advantage. Please educate me on how there is mechanical advantage. Thanks.

I’m no mechanical engineer but I don’t think there is any mechanical advantage, if you pull x distance of rope and the climber moves x distance there is no mechanical advantage. Just because you have two people pulling on the rope doesn’t mean there’s any mechanical advantage, it’s still 1:1, 1 foot of rope moved means the climber moves 1 foot. But hell, physics and mechanics were definitely not my strong suite, so I’ll gladly accept it if someone proves me wrong.

Gunkiemikewrote:

Absolutely there is. The climber gets a 2:1 and anything the belayer can pull adds to that.

Mike is correct. The trick here is that the climber is the thing that is moving AND is pulling. That's what gives the advantage.

A belayer pulling down on the belay strand is [theoretical] 1:1.

A climber pulling down on the same belay strand that they're attached to is [theoretical] 2:1.

AlpineSavvy has a post about this: https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/whats-the-mechanical-advantage-its-relative 

It's the second example on that page. Counter-intuitive, but super cool. Big ups to John G. at AlpineSavvy for the easy to understand write up.

It’s confusing because of the point of effort.  
If you are belaying someone/something else, it’s “theoretically” 1:1 just a change in direction (neglecting friction losses).

If you belay yourself, it’s 2:1 advantage due to the pulley “moving” with respect to you 

Edit:  simul post with Pat.  At least we are aligned

Pat Lightwrote:

Mike is correct. The trick here is that the climber is the thing that is moving AND is pulling. That's what gives the advantage.

A belayer pulling down on the belay strand is [theoretical] 1:1.

A climber pulling down on the same belay strand that they're attached to is [theoretical] 2:1.

AlpineSavvy has a post about this: https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/whats-the-mechanical-advantage-its-relative 

It's the second example on that page. Counter-intuitive, but super cool. Big ups to John G. at AlpineSavvy for the easy to understand write up.

Cool, thanks for the link and explanation.

In the second example (Alpine Savvy), they say "For the climber to go up 1 meter, they need to pull 2 meters of rope through the pulley." If I am one meter below the pulley, I have to pull one meter down to get to the pulley, right? And one meter goes through the pulley.  1:1, not 2:1.

Stubborn, I know!

Sometimes being right is the loneliest road in America. 

Frank,

  Go try it in your own backyard, it will soon make sense.  With a grigri and your rope tied to your harness with a loop of rope up to a sling on a branch.  With one hand you(I) can lift your(my) body weight with this set up.  Now dangle from the sling with 1/2 of the rope attached directly to your harness and see how well you ascend the rope.  You can even use your grigri.  It will all make sense.  If you want to explore friction loss try over the branch vs through a sling vs through a carabiner, vs a pulley.  Lots of fun....

Mack Johnsonwrote:

Sounds like you done good.  Interesting that you had rope-ascending tools with you for a TR.  If the TR is set up correctly, with the moving rope below or away from any edges, the non-moving rope should not be damaged if you weight it.

Did you try grabbing the belayer's side of the toprope to hoist yourself up by pulling on it and yelling, "Take!  Take!"?   2:1 mechanical advantage, belayer pulling, semi-erotic pelvic thrusts towards the sky (it works!) will elevate you without deploying an ascender and sling.  

Yes but my belayer wasn’t able to take out enough slack generated by me yarding on the other strand. I keep a micro on me now just in case I need to haul a follower ad I had a few epics where my follower wasn’t able to get through a move or top out which not having that made it just inconvenient in the hail process even though I was able to bring them up. This was a trad route that was lead by someone else who placed our draws for the top rope setup. 

Ray Lovpalwrote:

Yes but my belayer wasn’t able to take out enough slack generated by me yarding on the other strand. I keep a micro on me now just in case I need to haul a follower ad I had a few epics where my follower wasn’t able to get through a move or top out which not having that made it just inconvenient in the hail process even though I was able to bring them up. This was a trad route that was lead by someone else who placed our draws for the top rope setup. 

Why weren't they able to take up slack? How were they belaying you if they couldn't do that?

J Cwrote:

Why weren't they able to take up slack? How were they belaying you if they couldn't do that?

Im not sure why, he was far lighter than me and when I pulled myself up I’m not sure if the amount of stretch on the rope was offsetting his ability to be able to take out enough slack to get me to jig up the line with out an ascending set up.