New and Experienced Climbers Over 50 #18

Lori Milaswrote:

I want to stay away from the above topic and just read along to see how the story unfolds. On the surface of it it does seem shocking that a stranger could comment on a route and down it comes. So I hope that discussion continues.

I am home pretty sick from the Covid booster. As usual Tony felt nothing not even a sore arm and I feel like a crybaby. But I am reflecting on a large topic for me and that is just how far will I go to be the best climber I can be. It turns out maybe there are some guard rails on my life that I just can’t go beyond. What a 20-year-old young buck can do in terms of 6% body mass and what I can do aren’t even in the same universe. I have to make peace with all the limits of being 68 and diabetic among other things.  There is still some tinkering to do with my doctor but in the end it may require some grace and acceptance of what this body can accomplish today.  I would love to hear rgold’s perspective since I know he is ahead of the pack in nearly every way… but seems to have such equanimity with aging. 

Nearly everyone here has some limitation that they didn’t have decades ago.  I’d be interested to hear whether  you just push through or accept it without a battle. It just happens that I bumped into an article by Jeff Lowe which felt really right on.

1. Life is really short. Make the most of it. Do it now, tomorrow may never come.
2. The end rarely justifies questionable means, in climbing or the rest of life.
3. The impossible is only that which has not yet been accomplished.
4. Real difficulties are eased by a positive attitude.
5. Embracing reality sets one free, even if reality is difficult.
6. Commitment works magic, conquering fear and despair.
7. Boldness is central to creativity.
8. Love based motivation trumps fear-based motivation every time. Or revenge based, or greed based motivation, etc.
9. Deep curiousity/desire takes me where I want to go, even if in advance I don’t know where that is. A reluctant desire keeps me safe in the dangerous places, and cautions me to take care, or turn back.
10. It’s not the gear, it’s the climber.
11. Learning never stops. It’s physically, psychically, and spiritually dangerous when you think you know it all.
12. This planet is perfectly designed as a classroom for humans. The dimensions and living architecture of the mountains, polar ice caps, rivers, oceans, jungles and forests are perfect for extracting every last ounce of effort and creativity from those who approach them by fair means, lightly equipped. We must not continue to destroy our environment and its ecology, for not only is our well being tied directly to its condition, as individuals we learn the most about ourselves by adapting ourselves to its challenges—by an intimate acquiantance with all of its natural laws and forces both known and yet to be discovered; all of its colors, textures, sights, sounds, smells and tastes; all of its miraculous plants and creatures and the fantastic balance of the entire system. 

Lori, I don't know if equanimity is the right term for me.  I'm acutely aware of things that I can't do that I used to be able to do.  One of the features of being a long-term "resident" of a home climbing area is that I continually walk past climbs and boulder problems that I've done---some of them FA's or FFA's---that I can no longer do.  The reminders of a changed status are all around me.  Same for the gym.  As a gym rat from long before there were climbing gyms, I know with great precision what type of workout I used to do vs. what I can do now. There are measures in which I am literally half the man I used to be.  So it's not as if I'm sailing along on some blissful geriatric cloud, unaware of just how much I've lost.  On the contrary.  Add to that not only losses, but the beginnings of age-related inadequacies---the beginning of knee and ankle arthritis, the loss of balance skills---and you have a fairly robust image of decline.

You can and should aspire to getting better. I can only aspire in the long term to retarding the process of getting worse (ok not totally true; see "learning new things" below). To be realistic, the possibility of some type of health event that could put an end to climbing for me is not a dim hypothetical.

But it's all ok! I'm beyond grateful for having made it this far and still able to climb quite decently. Most of my friends and partners have quit, either voluntarily or because their health forced it, and a growing number are dead. I miss them all, some of them acutely.  But every day I set foot on rock is a gift, whether I climb "well" or "poorly" (I never know which version of myself is going to show up).  The ebbing of physical strength has directed my focus more and more to technique, and I'm continually learning things about overhanging climbing (in the gym), and learning new stuff is something that brightens the spirit and sharpens the mind. Which means I'm having fun!  I should add that whatever the long-term outlook, short-term improvement is very achievable.  I can do better today than I did the last time.  Not always---but enough to keep the fire stoked.

As for my "perspective," I've said before, climbing is dealing with What Is. The challenges, satisfactions, frustrations, the ups and downs, they're all about What Is. Perhaps one of the attractions of climbing is that it is a metaphor for life---but easier.  But there is no reason why our passion for dealing with What Is on the side of a crag or mountain shouldn't inform and direct our encounters with What Is in the rest of life, And by that I mean not simply coping, but finding satisfaction and sometimes joy in meeting What Is head-on and coming out the other end (either via success or failure) ready for the next encounter.

I don';t think of these encounters with What Is as battles, which carry with them the prospect of victory or defeat. I find it possible to be both realistic and positive. In climbing, the first keeps you alive and the second keeps you going. So it is with aging. I have no illusions about where things are headed (or where they already are), but I'm still psyched to give it a go, delighted with success, and not taken by surprise at failure. On to the next kerfuffle...

https://youtu.be/MuAUG-AxweQ

I think I've posted this before. There are many versions, Seeger usually snuck in something different. 

H.

rgoldwrote:

I don';t think of these encounters with What Is as battles, which carry with them the prospect of victory or defeat. I find it possible to be both realistic and positive. In climbing, the first keeps you alive and the second keeps you going. So it is with aging. I have no illusions about where things are headed (or where they already are), but I'm still psyched to give it a go, delighted with success, and not taken by surprise at failure. On to the next kerfuffle...

Thank you so much, rgold.  Every time you hold forth on a question/topic it sheds new insight and brings some comfort.  Virtually every one of your posts (here) is committed to memory.  

While attempting to play catch-up in this climbing venue, I've become aware that I bring a very full life to the endeavor and there's no erasing that.  Maybe some part of me expected to move here and live in a paid-for yurt, and unload all responsibilities, and return to permanent adolescence.  I know young climbers here where climbing is literally all they do, all they aspire to, and without a care about their future.  One aspect of the 'over 50' group is that we have developed lives, relationships, many interests... all of which have to be integrated.  That might be where my own internal struggle is... I still have to sit down at my desk daily and figure taxes and spreadsheets, have long conversations with my kids and their kids, make trips to doctors and dentists, swoon over Tony's pasta... and pick the fucking goathead thorns out of my carpet, feet, floor, and shoes. (the later is a whole new thing no one mentioned before).  

It's not just how to become a good climber, but how to make time to become a good climber.  And to give it it's rightful place in life... which even here in Joshua Tree can NOT be #1.

However, this morning I am going to give it a shot.  I'll take 5 hours of adolescence this morning, in exchange for 19 hours of adulthood later.   

Phylp- good luck with surgery.

I’m lying in the bed all prepared for my colonoscopy! Right now.

This is fun!

Ward - JB and I go way back to the beginning, we did our first 5.10 roped together- I lead the sucker “Judas” 5.10a. JB was a tremendous climber who quickly showed all of US how to climb hard, train to get harder and just go for it.

Oh they are coming to take me away.

Later…

Guy Keeseewrote:

Jan said I needed (liked) to warm up slowly- that is true. I found out that a quick “flash pump” gained on some 10 wasn’t helpful to me. But if I worked up a bit I would just get stronger and stronger over the course of a day...

Pretty funny, we used to have this talk all the time   . Jan and I both preferred to start out at a level close enough to our intended route that the gulf did not seem insurmountable. Of course when we were doing the really hard routes starting out on a well chosen .10 did not a flash pump give. You wouldn't see us warming up on some sandbag horror show, just good familiar .10's. 

Where I did often follow your approach was spread over a couple days. Day one would be a series of more moderate routes, day two was time to get down to business. One warm up and off to the races. This was especially true for me at the Needles. Same idea, just spread out. Warm up day. Sleep. Hard day. 

And there was no way in which I was suggesting Lori acheive 6% body fat.  That is totally unreasonable at our age.  I was just pointing out what it took us to get substantially better back in the day and was a valid approach if she really wanted to poke into 5.11s.  Of course we all have limitations at this point in life and we can only acheive what we can sustain physically.

When I was psycho obsessed n my 30s I got down to 148 with 3.8% body fat.  The climbing trainers who evaluated me thought that I might have an eating disorder, but my wife (girlfriend at the time) told them that I ate plenty but I was just rigid about what I ate and never over ate.

I'm now in my upper 150s and at 5' 9" could definitely lose some weight.  No doubt I  have less muscle than I did then so losing 5 pounds should have no adverse health impacts.  

Getting too lean is definitely bad, but the vast majority of us older climbers could improve most easily by just dropping some pounds.

Jan Mcwrote:

And there was no way in which I was suggesting Lori acheive 6% body fat.  That is totally unreasonable at our age.  I was just pointing out what it took us to get substantially better back in the day and was a valid approach if she really wanted to poke into 5.11s.  Of course we all have limitations at this point in life and we can only acheive what we can sustain physically.

Not so sure about that 6% number. During my time bike racing, i was not anywhere near 6%, but I was told on several occasions that I looked like a concentration camp inmate. I am now 20lbs heavier and climb much better. This was the case for the typically “anorexic” sport climbers of the 1990s who got just destroyed by the younger and healthier generation of Sharma and Caldwell. Anyway, as I am sure that you are aware, 5.11 is a pretty pedestrian grade these days, and even linebacker sized climbers such as the Mawem brothers climb .14+. Since the 1990s climbing has been slowly shedding its unhealthy obsession with body weight, and standards have only improved (as has climbers’ health and quality of life)

Jan Mcwrote:

And there was no way in which I was suggesting Lori acheive 6% body fat.  That is totally unreasonable at our age.  I was just pointing out what it took us to get substantially better back in the day and was a valid approach if she really wanted to poke into 5.11s.  Of course we all have limitations at this point in life and we can only acheive what we can sustain physically.

As a general approach, lower body fat is a valid approach for many people to improve their climbing grades. However, I just want Lori to know that I have a female friend over 60 who walks all kinds of very steep 5.11 sport and redpoints 5.12 and probably has a body fat % of at least 20%.  And that "back in the day", I was onsighting 11b/c (and the occasional 11d onsight) vertical and slab routes with a body fat of about 22%. From what I can see from her photos, Lori is not even remotely overweight.  Scientific publications have reported that the typically range of body fat for female athletes is 14-20%.  Elite woman rock climbers have body fat % ranging from 12-18%.  For the types of routes she likes to do, I would venture to say that weight loss is the least important component.

Ward Smithwrote:

When I was psycho obsessed n my 30s I got down to 148 with 3.8% body fat.  The climbing trainers who evaluated me thought that I might have an eating disorder, but my wife (girlfriend at the time) told them that I ate plenty but I was just rigid about what I ate and never over ate.

I'm now in my upper 150s and at 5' 9" could definitely lose some weight.  No doubt I  have less muscle than I did then so losing 5 pounds should have no adverse health impacts.  

Getting too lean is definitely bad, but the vast majority of us older climbers could improve most easily by just dropping some pounds.

Totally Ward.  Funny I never knew we were both super skinny at around the same time.  I weighed 117 in the mid '90's.  I weigh 7 to 9# more now but happier.  As you said, I dropped a few pounds for Kalymnos in 2018 and that made a noticeable difference.

Have any of you been hydrostatically weighed? I have to question these body fat numbers. 

Lowering body weight is not about getting rid of fat. Lowering your weight should be about getting rid of weight you don't need & you need FAT. At our age, our bodies lose muscle way before fat. If you are going to diet you need to work out to maintain your muscles. Your body needs some fat to survive. 

Mark Frumkinwrote:

Have any of you been hydrostatically weighed? I have to question these body fat numbers. 

Lowering body weight is not about getting rid of fat. Lowering your weight should be about getting rid of weight you don't need & you need FAT. At our age, our bodies lose muscle way before fat. If you are going to diet you need to work out to maintain your muscles. Your body needs some fat to survive. 

Absolutely, and you need to eat fat in order to survive.  Im on a keto diet and eat plenty of fat.  Upping protein intake as we age also helps to maintain muscle.  

I'm not advocating being unhealthy, just being as light as is healthy for your frame.  I'm big boned so low 150s at 5'9" is super lean for me; guys my height with bird legs might be fine at 140.  It is all about knowing what is right for your body.

  

I seem to remember a story about Jim Karn basically starving himself out of competition climbing, which he was very good at.

I don’t know if you all are aware of this but we are finding our way through complex topics together with so much input from all sides. There is SO much information here—and I guarantee no book or doctor could duplicate it.  

Jan, I in no way took offense. But some good conversation has come from it. I do get frustrated that I can’t get to a previous weight but it’s interesting that even losing a few pounds appears to be more muscle than fat loss these days and that’s no help at all. Everything goes slack on my body… so this ain’t 1969 anymore where you look great skinny… and we have new bodies to learn all about.
Maybe all of this will be a help and support to a future  generation so they don’t have to flounder with odd physical requirements for aging.

I will say that one solution could be COW TESTICALS!!!   Tony has been taking these daily and he is turning into a bad motherfucker.  They may be a suitable testosterone replacement for me although I just take a tiny amount. 

If I can report, I half-climbed this route of Bob’s, Blackjack. I should not have climbed anything else first today because my arms and fingers didn’t have the needed reserves. This route took the snot out of me. It was harder than I could do but not as hard as I expected. So much for the warmup theory.

There is so SO much to learn on this route which most of you have already learned. Hips to the wall, moving through overhangs,  just purchasing one more inch. And as Nelson noted “It’s pretty thin up there!” I  cursed and laughed the whole way and just know that I want to be this good of a climber someday. What a complete blast and such a luxury! Nelson did take a long whipper on lead  but I did my job so we both got new experience! I said I was going to be sensible from now on so will start today… No more 511’s for now.  

My Whoop gave me a pretty hard Strain Score. Maybe the highest I’ve ever had. Man I want to go back and learn more of this route!!!

Anni is is real.  It messes up not just your body but  it really FCKS up your brain chemistry. Don't be Annie..   Don't be as fat as I am either ;)  Unless you content with being a better ice climber than rock climber.  :) 

 We need some BITD pictures of all you super skinny weightless dudes. I’ll throw down, but I wasn't super skinny like you guys were.

Just my own experience with weight/bf. Year 1998_5.10"_140. I have no idea what my body fat was at the time. But I was very lean and plenty strong. No “bird legs though.” An extra 10 pounds would have shut me down. 

The Needles_Davy Jones Locker_.12b trad. Yeah I know. 12b is trivial these days, but that climb still gets respect. I saw some very strong young climbers who make pretty big numbers on steep sport get spanked on this rig.

Moderator. This is an out-take from a set that Greg Epperson took. He gave the out-takes to me and said "These are yours. Do with them what you please." If this is a copyright concern, just delete the post.

 Thanks

No pictures from the '90's to share or want to :)  I have bird legs, so there.  My dress shirt is 15/33, slim cut.  28.5/29 inch waist.  So yes, I am small human.
I love my fat so no danger there. For me, to lose weight is to exercise more, eat the right things but not less (I get hungry easily), and get motivated for an upcoming trip. COVID has shut that down for more than 1.5 years now and I am getting super antsy.

P.S.  Proper warmup is legit.  I need it now more than I did 20, 30 years ago but even back then I *tried* to warm up properly.

Climbing magazine from the 90s, I'm on a 13c/d I put up in Rumney.  38 at the time of the photo.  I miss the dark hair.

Nice.

edit: 150?

So now 5.11s and 5.12s are chump change? I quit.