New and Experienced Climbers Over 50 #18

New thread for the ever popular older set.

Bob, I was actually wondering how that area had held up to the assault as I was writing that post.  At least we tried to contain the spread some but with the crap that people are willing to bolt these days I suppose it was destined to failure.

The original bolt removal episode came down like this. I pulled into the Split Rock parking area in a clean sports car, and got out to look around. I was wearing Bermuda shorts and a casual short sleeve shirt; I did not fit the profile of a climber. There were some tourists there looking at these bolts on Split Rock right at the parking area. One of the old dad's said "I'm really surprised they let them do that." I didn't know whos bolts they were, but I came to the decision that they were best made to go away. I rounded up Jan, who I knew would be sympathetic, and we pulled them out. It was easy to do and left no damage to the rock. Of course by then we knew Bob had placed them. (It's possible that Jan was with me when the tourist made his comment, I don't recall).

I hardly knew Bob at the time, and we wanted to chat with him about it, so we rounded up Laeger who, begrudgingly consented to join us. We had zero idea how Bob would react, but we felt we owed him an explanation. I recall being quite nervous when we saw Bob in Hidden Valley CG, and made our approach.

So, Bob was totally cool. Like Jan said, there was a moment, but he was cool. As I recall he said that we were right, and that when they went in it was a different time. Which it was. 

Then those damn bolts Bob mentioned (not his) sprouted up on the Next face right, again over the parking lot. Again? They had to go. I soloed up the end of the thing and set up to get after it, but it was immediately clear that those bolts were not coming out without a lot of shattering of the rock. I wasn't up for that so I just painted 'em brown and called it a day.

I've always appreciated Bob's cool response to what most climbers would have seen as confrontational and the start of a conflict...

I want to stay away from the above topic and just read along to see how the story unfolds. On the surface of it it does seem shocking that a stranger could comment on a route and down it comes. So I hope that discussion continues.

I am home pretty sick from the Covid booster. As usual Tony felt nothing not even a sore arm and I feel like a crybaby. But I am reflecting on a large topic for me and that is just how far will I go to be the best climber I can be. It turns out maybe there are some guard rails on my life that I just can’t go beyond. What a 20-year-old young buck can do in terms of 6% body mass and what I can do aren’t even in the same universe. I have to make peace with all the limits of being 68 and diabetic among other things.  There is still some tinkering to do with my doctor but in the end it may require some grace and acceptance of what this body can accomplish today.  I would love to hear rgold’s perspective since I know he is ahead of the pack in nearly every way… but seems to have such equanimity with aging. 

Nearly everyone here has some limitation that they didn’t have decades ago.  I’d be interested to hear whether  you just push through or accept it without a battle. It just happens that I bumped into an article by Jeff Lowe which felt really right on.

1. Life is really short. Make the most of it. Do it now, tomorrow may never come.
2. The end rarely justifies questionable means, in climbing or the rest of life.
3. The impossible is only that which has not yet been accomplished.
4. Real difficulties are eased by a positive attitude.
5. Embracing reality sets one free, even if reality is difficult.
6. Commitment works magic, conquering fear and despair.
7. Boldness is central to creativity.
8. Love based motivation trumps fear-based motivation every time. Or revenge based, or greed based motivation, etc.
9. Deep curiousity/desire takes me where I want to go, even if in advance I don’t know where that is. A reluctant desire keeps me safe in the dangerous places, and cautions me to take care, or turn back.
10. It’s not the gear, it’s the climber.
11. Learning never stops. It’s physically, psychically, and spiritually dangerous when you think you know it all.
12. This planet is perfectly designed as a classroom for humans. The dimensions and living architecture of the mountains, polar ice caps, rivers, oceans, jungles and forests are perfect for extracting every last ounce of effort and creativity from those who approach them b fair means, lightly equipped. We must not continue to destroy our environment and its ecology, for not only is our well being tied directly to its condition, as individuals we learn the most about ourselves by adapting ourselves to its challenges—by an intimate acquiantance with all of its natural laws and forces both known and yet to be discovered; all of its colors, textures, sights, sounds, smells and tastes; all of its miraculous plants and creatures and the fantastic balance of the entire system. 

Lori Milaswrote:

I want to stay away from the above topic and just read along to see how the story unfolds. On the surface of it it does seem shocking that a stranger could comment on a route and down it comes. So I hope that discussion continues.

I am home pretty sick from the Covid booster. As usual Tony felt nothing not even a sore arm and I feel like a crybaby. But I am reflecting on a large topic for me and that is just how far will I go to be the best climber I can be. It turns out maybe there are some guard rails on my life that I just can’t go beyond. What a 20-year-old young buck can do in terms of 6% body mass and what I can do aren’t even in the same universe. I have to make peace with all the limits of being 68 and diabetic among other things.  There is still some tinkering to do with my doctor but in the end it may require some grace and acceptance of what this body can accomplish today.  I would love to hear rgold’s perspective since I know he is ahead of the pack in nearly every way… but seems to have such equanimity with aging. 

Nearly everyone here has some limitation that they didn’t have decades ago.  I’d be interested to hear whether  you just push through or accept it without a battle. It just happens that I bumped into an article by Jeff Lowe which felt really right on.

1. Life is really short. Make the most of it. Do it now, tomorrow may never come.
2. The end rarely justifies questionable means, in climbing or the rest of life.
3. The impossible is only that which has not yet been accomplished.
4. Real difficulties are eased by a positive attitude.
5. Embracing reality sets one free, even if reality is difficult.
6. Commitment works magic, conquering fear and despair.
7. Boldness is central to creativity.
8. Love based motivation trumps fear-based motivation every time. Or revenge based, or greed based motivation, etc.
9. Deep curiousity/desire takes me where I want to go, even if in advance I don’t know where that is. A reluctant desire keeps me safe in the dangerous places, and cautions me to take care, or turn back.
10. It’s not the gear, it’s the climber.
11. Learning never stops. It’s physically, psychically, and spiritually dangerous when you think you know it all.
12. This planet is perfectly designed as a classroom for humans. The dimensions and living architecture of the mountains, polar ice caps, rivers, oceans, jungles and forests are perfect for extracting every last ounce of effort and creativity from those who approach them b fair means, lightly equipped. We must not continue to destroy our environment and its ecology, for not only is our well being tied directly to its condition, as individuals we learn the most about ourselves by adapting ourselves to its challenges—by an intimate acquiantance with all of its natural laws and forces both known and yet to be discovered; all of its colors, textures, sights, sounds, smells and tastes; all of its miraculous plants and creatures and the fantastic balance of the entire system. 

Regarding the route coming down, there's not much left to unfold. The bolts offended tourists, non- climber visitors, and that can't lead to any good for climbers. In retrospect I could have gone and talked to Bob first, and if I knew him at all back then I would have. I just expected the response you'd get from most climbers: F*ck off. I learned that Bob is not like that. I don't think there's much more water to go over the dam on this one.

Regarding the latter?

12 X Yes...

another great weekend in the NEK.  some color left up there but mostly stick season. a hint of white on the summits of the white mountains. 

Future sauna. pond still needs some work but the exacavator has been AWOL.. 

we had spectators.

Frosty in the morning but our private crag was sunny and warm and wind sheltered. 

I had a high gravity day and everything felt steep and hard. 

trying not to get shot. its hunting season.

 

Lori said…..”My route yesterday, a 10a, went well.  I climbed it without a hang or a slip.  But I was tentative stepping  out onto microchips, pulling down on tiny nubs.  The route had some surprises and I was frustrated that I couldn't just get a move-on.  I always imagine you all just soldiering upward on routes with no hesitation and full confidence.”

Keep doing it this way, remember success leads to more success. Good job on the “no hangs” part- that is the mindset you need.
Remember each of US is unique we don’t work like machines.
Jan said I needed (liked) to warm up slowly- that is true. I found out that a quick “flash pump” gained on some 10 wasn’t helpful to me. But if I worked up a bit I would just get stronger and stronger over the course of a day.
And Yes one must keep climbing to stay sharp. Almost every day if possible. You at 68 - like me, sometimes can’t climb every day because well things hurt. Most of the people who started climbing when I did stopped climbing altogether years ago. So at 68 please don’t worry about becoming honed - I Lol at Jan’s assertion that you go 6% BM- just the fact that you grab stone regularly is key to your improvement- keep it up.

Jeff Lowe is an inspiring person. Great climber, grabbed life by the horns and when God gave him an impossible crux he was graceful though it all.

Ward- did you ever live out west? Know JB?
curious

Ward- did you ever live out west? Know JB?
curious

Never lived out west, I used to spend at least a month climbing there in the winter from the mid 80s on.  First J Tree was the hot spot, then Hueco and Red Rocks.  I was working on Nothing Shocking (13a) at the Gallery and Bachar was there alone so we started chatting and I gave him a catch.  Very intense personality replete with numerous F bombs, something you didnt get from coverage in the magazines.   Super smooth looking on the rock, one of those few soloists who looked so smooth that I didn't think he would ever die doing it.

This last weekend, David and I got out for a classic Flatiron scramble. We did the Regency to Royal Arch to the Hammerhead. This is 4th class / 5.0 climbing. It's roughly 1000' vertical feet, and really fun. We're sitting at the top of Royal Arch, and the top of the Regency is the small outcrop in the lower right of the photo. You can see some other soloists coming up below us.

Funny thing about these solos, I'm completely comfortable on some, and others are just no. Even on this climb, I was confronted with a step-across that was a simple "nope", so I took an alternate path. But in general, I love these outings. I don't know if it's true, but I certainly believe that this type of route has made me a better slab climber. If any of you find yourselves out here, these are great climbs.

love those kinds of hikes. Lots of them to be had in the winter but nothing long on rock near me... 

Victor Kwrote:

This last weekend, David and I got out for a classic Flatiron scramble. We did the Regency to Royal Arch to the Hammerhead. This is 4th class / 5.0 climbing. It's roughly 1000' vertical feet, and really fun. We're sitting at the top of Royal Arch, and the top of the Regency is the small outcrop in the lower right of the photo. You can see some other soloists coming up below us.

Beautiful view, Victor.  Thanks for the photo!

I went to the climbing gym today for my last climbing workout before my surgery. During a rest break I watched a woman trying to climb a route rated 11a.  It was kind of painful watching her climb, Her sense of how to move was really lacking.  Her hips were left and high when they should have been low and right.  Etc. The route was slightly overhanging, a serious of angled liebacks on decent crimps.  She fell and hung a half dozen times.  I mused to my husband "why is she trying to do a route rated 11a when she hasn't mastered the simplest fundamentals of climbing movement?"  He said "because if you've been climbing 2 weeks of course you should be climbing an 11a."

I'm by far not a hard climber.  But I do know that the holds and the angle of the route is talking to you.  It will tell you how to climb it if you listen to your body and sense what is happening.  There is nothing wrong with trying routes harder than you can do. But it's painful watching someone putting these incorrect engrams into their muscle memory.  Then I watched her partner try the same route.  Her body positioning was much better the whole way.  She fell at the top and her partner, who couldn't do the move herself, gave her all kinds of beta about where to put her foot and hand.

Sometimes when I see people struggling and I can see why, I ask if they would like a comment about technique.  But today, since I myself was climbing with only one leg, and could not demonstrate anything, I didn't say anything.

Another topic:  it's funny what sticks in our memory about routes.  Ward was talking about Yaak Crack and described it as pumpy.  I think I've done it twice and I don't remember the pump aspect.  I remember it being steep face climbing off the ground but then you do get a good hand jam/rest?  And then I remember falling at a finger crack section near the top?  Mostly what I remember is that it was a really good route!  I'd like to be fit enough again one day to do it again! This made me realize that when I remember routes, my body remembers sequences, movement, run outs, gear placements, but not pump.  And I do get pumped!  Why is that I wonder?  Has anybody else noticed that?

Victor Kwrote:

This last weekend, David and I got out for a classic Flatiron scramble. We did the Regency to Royal Arch to the Hammerhead. This is 4th class / 5.0 climbing. It's roughly 1000' vertical feet, and really fun. We're sitting at the top of Royal Arch, and the top of the Regency is the small outcrop in the lower right of the photo. You can see some other soloists coming up below us.

Funny thing about these solos, I'm completely comfortable on some, and others are just no. Even on this climb, I was confronted with a step-across that was a simple "nope", so I took an alternate path. But in general, I love these outings. I don't know if it's true, but I certainly believe that this type of route has made me a better slab climber. If any of you find yourselves out here, these are great climbs.

I like the Flatirons shirt in front of the actual Flatirons, the color match is pretty good except for the sky...

Phylip. perhaps you have  the right mindset for alpine climbing ;) forget the suffering and only remember the high points :) 

Guy Keeseewrote:

Jan said I needed (liked) to warm up slowly- that is true. I found out that a quick “flash pump” gained on some 10 wasn’t helpful to me. But if I worked up a bit I would just get stronger and stronger over the course of a day.
And Yes one must keep climbing to stay sharp. Almost every day if possible. You at 68 - like me, sometimes can’t climb every day because well things hurt. Most of the people who started climbing when I did stopped climbing altogether years ago. So at 68 please don’t worry about becoming honed - I Lol at Jan’s assertion that you go 6% BM- just the fact that you grab stone regularly is key to your improvement- keep it up.

Agreed.
A nasty flash pump in the morning makes for a miserable first half day for me. If I warm up right, I will feel stronger gradually the more I climb until something starts to hurt, usually towards mid or late afternoon. Then I will taper down and maybe repeat a warm-up as a warm-down.

The only time I was between 6% and 10% body fat was in the mid '90's during a phase when nothing mattered besides climbing. My diet was not healthy or well rounded to say the least. Weighing 8% more now and even tho not any more muscular, I am much happier and balanced. In spite of being weaker than I was in my 30's, I am happy I traded half to one number grade in max diffiulty for a significantly better quality of life.

P.S.  I try to rope climb twice a week, and boulder indoors once a week (during "lunch").  I also try my best to get a good amount of exercise in 3 of the other four days.  Got to stay more active as one ages.  I learned that from my parents.

Phylp, wishing you the best. My husband had ankle surgery today and I'm waiting at home for him to get a room so I can visit.

I had the opposite experience at the gym Saturday. I watched a woman on autobelay float up a route that was at about my limit (10+ or maybe 11-). Then she danced up an 11. Then it was a 12-. I knew then that she was totally out of my league and the fact that she was finding these routes easy did not mean anything for my chances on the last two.   We chatted and she was very pleasant.    

Not to be selfish, but all the above comments give me hope and encouragement.  I just want to thank this group for their conversation, when I can eavesdrop it always helps me on my way.  There is never a post from Guy that doesn’t bring a huge smile.  

Perhaps the words I was looking for (my above post) were ‘staying sharp’.  Whenever I do a warm up climb in the morning it’s only partially to get physically warmed up.  It’s mostly to get my brain reacclimated.  I spend a couple of hours just getting used to this odd thing we do.. stepping out onto nothing edges, grasping holds that aren’t there, relearning that feet can stick to vertical rock if you believe it enough  This always takes me a few mindblowing trips up rock before I’m back in the swing of things.  If only I could climb every day, I think that would help with retaining that head space.  

Tony REALLY wants to be able to share this experience with me by somehow comparing it to golf.  Not being a golfer, I don’t know if there is any commonality.  Does anyone here golf?  Today we drove into the Park so I could check out an 11a route that I already know I cannot climb but want to try anyway… Tony compared it to an unknown golf course where anything can happen.  Don’t prejudge the game.  Maybe.     He’s trying. 

I feel very strong, very healthy… no injuries, nothing hurts (except my feet, which I’m dealing with).  But there is that pesky diabetes and endocrine struggles and fight with weight.  I took my frustrations to a diabetic athlete group on Facebook that I belong to.  I do not think of myself as an athlete AT ALL  but these folks at least understand the challenges of heavy exercise as a diabetic.  One FB  friend just ran across America.  He started at 50 years old, unable to trot even a 1/4 mile.  Couldn’t swim a stroke.  He decided to see what his body was capable of… and now in his 60’s, he’s running hundreds of miles.  A Type One Diabetic (like me)… his wife took the role of feeding him on his long marathons… sometimes 4000+ calories a day, plus monitoring his blood sugars, adjusting his insulin, reviving him from lows.  HE’S an athlete.  

Anyway, one diabetic athlete friend responded to my frustration with this: (which probably applies to us all):

“Here's what I'd suggest: Chill.Focus on eating a healthy diet and training, and remember that this is supposed to be fun. Let the rest take care of itself.I know plenty of really successful female athletes who defy body stereotypes. My friend and pro cyclist, Olivia Ray, has written extensively about this issue.If you want to lose weight, that's fine. But it's going to be gradual - especially if you're continuing to train. Instead of berating yourself and feeling like you are struggling, why not make peace with where you are right now and let the process of dropping weight happen healthfully, over time and in a space where you are not constantly feeling frustrated by how much or how little the scale moves? Give your body time and grace and enjoy your sport while working to get stronger and fuel your body well. The rest will totally fall into place.”

wendy weisswrote:

Phylp, wishing you the best. My husband had ankle surgery today and I'm waiting at home for him to get a room so I can visit.

I had the opposite experience at the gym Saturday. I watched a woman on autobelay float up a route that was at about my limit (10+ or maybe 11-). Then she danced up an 11. Then it was a 12-. I knew then that she was totally out of my league and the fact that she was finding these routes easy did not mean anything for my chances on the last two.   We chatted and she was very pleasant.    

Missed the post by Phylp… fingers crossed on that.  Seems you made the decision quickly!  Best of luck, keep us posted. 

Wendy… your husband’s been through a lot lately!  I hope this surgery will be a game-changer for him and for the two of you.

I’m kind of freaking out about Tony’s upcoming surgery(s) now scheduled for December 2.  For the first time I’m wondering if he can handle this.  On a Thursday a team of 4 surgeons will go in through his abdomen and work on his spine from that side… then he rests a day… and on Saturday they turn him over and go in through his back.  There are a thousand ‘what if’s’ going through my mind this time.  I told him I was worried.  He suggested that I just drop him off and go home (120 miles away) and watch the house…for the 9 days he’s in the hospital.  Kind of a tuck and roll.     It’s very hard to watch.  

Wow...

If I miss anyone, or anything, well, best wishes (and intentions) from afar, eh?

First, geez Lori. 

You are pursuing an athletic endeavor, right?

YOU ARE AN ATHLETE. There's a period at the end of that sentence dear. Stop apologizing for being an "imposter". And yeah, I look over my shoulder all the time to see who people are talking to. Can't quite believe it's me, sneaking in the back door...

But it is.

And? That's a laughable me to watch climbing. 

Phylp, I'm the one in the group who is least likely to ever climb at the levels others do, so.... it's take whatever I get, and run with it. Have fun! Move to move, pretty often, and that pretty often means I'm picking whatever looks fun or interesting to take a shot at.

I'm the one at the gym making that 5.6 move way harder. Or the one who is trying to see if a heel hook might fly....off a boulder that's only chest high at most. 

See, I'll never get to do 5.11 on a 5.11. 

Next best is I dunno what on whatever I'm on, lol!

Best to all on upcoming worries. I absolutely HATE waiting for anything, and it's even worse to be helplessly stuck with it when it's someone else you're worried about! I'd so much rather have something be right now, just deal with it. Maybe that's part of the appeal of climbing.

Oh, and golf?

Hmm. 

The analogy to climbing is okay, in the solving a puzzle, using your body, working toward "perfection".... That fits with a lot of things, actually.

But we also have "splat" in our vocabulary. 

So, my dearest Lori, you are not only an athlete, but a crazy woman pursuing an extreme sport!

Wahooooooo! 

 

Helen. you get it though. its just about having fun and being out on the rock or ice with friends. 

S. Neohwrote:

Agreed.
A nasty flash pump in the morning makes for a miserable first half day for me. If I warm up right, I will feel stronger gradually the more I climb until something starts to hurt, usually towards mid or late afternoon. Then I will taper down and maybe repeat a warm-up as a warm-down.

The only time I was between 6% and 10% body fat was in the mid '90's during a phase when nothing mattered besides climbing. My diet was not healthy or well rounded to say the least. Weighing 8% more now and even tho not any more muscular, I am much happier and balanced. In spite of being weaker than I was in my 30's, I am happy I traded half to one number grade in max diffiulty for a significantly better quality of life.

P.S.  I try to rope climb twice a week, and boulder indoors once a week (during "lunch").  I also try my best to get a good amount of exercise in 3 of the other four days.  Got to stay more active as one ages.  I learned that from my parents.

I find I must do some sort of climbing at least three times a week (indoor bouldering, top roping in doors or outdoors, leading) to remain comfortable and at the same strength level.  I try for Tues and Thurs after work (mostly indoors) and Sat and Sun or just Sat outdoors. I generally hurt all the time but if I rest too much I feel fat, lazy, uncoordinated.  Sometimes I feel that climbing four days a week is too much for me to recover properly now I'm almost 60 but I'm trying to vary the intensity.  I do find if I climb I most want to smash it so to speak, and meed to get used to varying the intensity...

Well said, Carl.  Keep it up. Stay motivated! And, yes, four days a week is typically too much for me too.  

wendy weisswrote:

I watched a woman on autobelay float up a route that was at about my limit (10+ or maybe 11-). Then she danced up an 11. Then it was a 12-. 

As with most things, those who are very good at their craft make the difficult look easy.
For me, I have always admired how, almost casually, Angela Eiter dominated the World Cup competition scene in the mid 2000's. Always in control, never looked stress, and hanging on forever to tiny holds.  She retired from comp in 2011/2012 to concentrate on hard outdoor sport routes.  When she made headlines in 2017 to become the first woman to climb F9b, I was not surprised.  She has since notched another F9b in her home country of Austria.  If you can find the videos of her climbing, you can't possibly not be impressed and inspired.

Good luck to all on the surgeries, future and current.

Lori, I have a golf joke you can share with Tony.  Q: What's the difference between a bad day for a golfer and a bad day for a climber?  A:  For the golfer it sounds like this: "WHACK!..... Oh shit".  For the climber it sounds like this: "Oh shit..... WHACK!"

I have a minuscule victory to report.  I have been doing PT and now some very easy strength exercises for my elbow tendonitis for quite a while now.  I decided I was ready, so for the first time I got to the gym and did some easy stuff (with a brace).  It went well.  I'm going to keep taking it easy, but I'm very excited to hope that this may be the beginning of the end of this damn injury.

GO