Rostrum Rant

Cole Darbywrote:

if a junk show party wants to help make a pass happen feels like it can be done relatively quickly. Especially at the bottom of 4.

It sounds like the “climbing ranger” the OP encountered was not intent on doing the whole route and pulled their ropes for OP to pass. Seems pretty decent.

Is the argument that unless you are climbing at “x” speed per pitch, you aren’t allowed / it’s in really poor style / taste to traverse in above p3?

Generally I agree with OP that if you cut in above p3 to start your climb on P4, the crux pitch, and their are ground up parties on p3, at the least you need to be very considerate of other folks trying to get the whole route done. Especially with north face being the definition of a “classic” or “trade route”.

Edit: I feel like this thread has happened before. 

have you climbed this route?

imagine this: you wake up at 4 am and drive to the parking, arrive as the sun rises. there are already cars there, but you hustle down to the base (3 rappels). when you arrive you’re tickled to see you’re second in line! the party in front of you is quick and rapidly pulls away, the party behind you equals your pace. it’s a great day!

when you finish P3 there’s now three parties below you - some on the previous pitches, and some waiting to start at the base. everyone seems to be moving at a decent speed and having fun, though. as you pull onto the ledge that P3 ends on you see climbers on the next pitch who cut in above the rappels, and they are flailing. 

they eventually finish P4 and you start up. at the top of P4 you look down and see there are now five parties below you. all six parties are now stuck behind the people who cut in at the halfway stance. the party that cut in just ruined a lot of folks’ days.

even if they are fast, they could easily cause a huge traffic jam. there are definitely situations where cutting in on the rostrum is fine, but if even a fast party should turn around and walk back out if they traverse to the ledge, look down, and see multiple parties coming up.

Cole Darbywrote:

We’ve got a winner 

WOW WA WEE WOW

People practicing aid on the rostrum, with multiple “laps” for the followers

with a free aspiring rostroman party stuck behind

but hey, at least they didn’t cut in above pitch 3 on the ledge, amiright? 

there are good places to practice aid in yosemite. the rostrum isn’t one of them.

Alexander Blumwrote:

there are good places to practice aid in yosemite. the rostrum isn’t one of them.

Come on Alex, the topo clearly says 5.9 A1/2. Think I'm going to polish my pins off and jump directly on the 4th pitch after a leisurely Saturday morning whenever these storms abate.

Alexander Blumwrote:

have you climbed this route?

imagine this: you wake up at 4 am and drive to the parking, arrive as the sun rises. there are already cars there, but you hustle down to the base (3 rappels). when you arrive you’re tickled to see you’re second in line! the party in front of you is quick and rapidly pulls away, the party behind you equals your pace. it’s a great day!

when you finish P3 there’s now three parties below you - some on the previous pitches, and some waiting to start at the base. everyone seems to be moving at a decent speed and having fun, though. as you pull onto the ledge that P3 ends on you see climbers on the next pitch who cut in above the rappels, and they are flailing. 

they eventually finish P4 and you start up. at the top of P4 you look down and see there are now five parties below you. all six parties are now stuck behind the people who cut in at the halfway stance. the party that cut in just ruined a lot of folks’ days.

even if they are fast, they could easily cause a huge traffic jam. there are definitely situations where cutting in on the rostrum is fine, but if even a fast party should turn around and walk back out if they traverse to the ledge, look down, and see multiple parties coming up.

I wouldn’t say I’ve “climbed” it   

But I’ve been on it 

I’ve just never been on it with that many parties

In your highly specific hypothetical, I agree, that a party cutting in at the ledge would be a bit of a party foul, but I also don’t think there is anything you can do to stop someone from cutting in, and I’m confused as to why people think a junk show party going ground up, if you are behind them, would somehow make your day better.

If the route is that crowded, I wouldn’t get on it personally. 

Former Climber wrote:

This is unrelated to the Rostrum, but this way of thinking is a slippery slope. I've never heard of anyone who go through the trouble of hiking to the top just to TR the last pitch of Astroman. I hope it's not something you are really planning on. If you are a TR party (who dropped in from the top) thinking that the ground-up party you delayed by 20 minutes because you cut in line should thank you for giving them a rest, I don't even know what to say to that. 

“Slippery slope” 

Classic 

yea, if we bolt (insert any route in the contiguous United States) then next thing you know BY will be rap bolted 

The folks I’ve meet that can actually climb at that level, 

instead of people that used to be able to back in the day (when our ethics saw us getting heavily passed by all other climbing countries), or all of us armchair quarterbacks on the proj, 

don’t seem like they would give a fuck about a party at the top of Astro, as long as the party had a plan to get out of the way. We’re busy arguing about hypotheticals on the proj, while those folks are usually out getting after it, and dealing with the crowds via the path of least resistance

I don’t even know what else to say to you either, other than, climbing doesn’t matter, we aren’t curing cancer, let’s try to have fun and respect each other  

i don’t think I said a ground up party would owe a thank you, but I could be mistaken

Cole Darbywrote:

C D wrote:

I wouldn’t say I’ve “climbed” it   

But I’ve been on it 

I’ve just never been on it with that many parties

In your highly specific hypothetical, I agree, that a party cutting in at the ledge would be a bit of a party foul, but I also don’t think there is anything you can do to stop someone from cutting in, and I’m confused as to why people think a junk show party going ground up, if you are behind them, would somehow make your day better.

If the route is that crowded, I wouldn’t get on it personally.

that “highly specific hypothetical” was my experience last saturday (except no one cut in, so everyone had a great day despite the crowds). i would imagine it was a pretty typical fall saturday on an ultra-classic, extremely well protected, easy to access 5.11 in the most famous climbing area in the US.

i don’t know who in this thread said a junk show climbing this route ground-up would be any better. it’s still rude, just in a different way.

sure, we all “have a right” to the same rocks. it’s still good to consider how your actions will impact the experience of others. on the rostrum you can’t see how many parties are in line until you’ve finished the raps. once you’ve finished the raps you’re kind of committed. getting down there and seeing one junk show who “woke up earliest and therefore deserve their spot” holding up 3-5 parties would be utterly infuriating, IMO

Cole Darbywrote:

In your highly specific hypothetical, I agree, that a party cutting in at the ledge would be a bit of a party foul, but I also don’t think there is anything you can do to stop someone from cutting in,

There's the same way we enforce most societal norms - shame and social pressure. It's far from 100% effective, but it goes a long way.

SirTobyThe3rd Mwrote:

If it makes you feel any better, a few years ago a friend and I climbed astroman (both clean) and were down super early in the day. So we headed to the Rostrum to try linking them both…long story short, there was a party of 3 practicing aid on it, still on pitch 2 and 3. The two followers were re-aiding the pitches on TR. So we got stuck for so long that at sunset we climbed the crux clean and bailed on the link up in order to make it to a friend’s birthday that evening. :/

If it makes you feel any better, a few years ago a friend and I climbed Bishop's Terrace (both clean) and were down super early in the day. So we headed to the East Buttress of Middle Cathedral Rock to try linking them both…long story short, there were 6 parties of 3 practicing free climbing on it, still on pitch 2 and 3. The two followers were hangdogging the pitches on TR. So we got stuck for so long that at sunset we climbed the crux clean and bailed on the link up in order to make it to a friend’s birthday that evening. :/

True story

Tl;dr  

the ditch is a junkshow And birthdays ruin everything. 

Is the idea of slow parties epicing/causing traffic jams on valley classics really news?

Former Climber wrote:

There are a lot of assumptions in here.  You made an assumption how "The folks I’ve meet that can actually climb at that level" think. This whole thread started out by folks who actually climbed the route ranting about a frustrating situation. You made an assumption that crowds on climbs can always be dealt with "via the path of least resistance". Many folks who actually climbed the route tell you that's not the case here (or on many other routes, including Astroman, for that matter). You made an assumption that other folks voicing their opinions need to be told to "try to have fun and respect each other". Seriously?

Lastly, but this is not important to the topic, you made an assumption based on a random username. What if I change my username to "Former, Present, and Future Climber"?

I think the thread is a good food for thought. It will not stop all future cut-ins/drop-ins, but it might help some people realize, thus rethink their plan, that although they themselves don't consider it a big deal to cause other climbers delay due to their cut-in-line action, it is not always cheerfully received, let alone appreciated, by their victims. 

you’re reading / hearing what you want to formerclimber. The assumptions are apparently going both ways.  Im not trying to win over a random blank MP account or the person behind it. If any of my opinions or comments bugged you feel free to ignore them. Or not. I’m good either way. 

I also enjoy the thread, the discussion, and I love Yosemite, Yosemite rock climbing, the rostrum, and the history of the rostrum, so I bet everyone on this thread has at least a little common ground.

To your first point, I was talking about folks that can free Astro ground up, not people that can get up rostrum, two different levels of climbing.
So are people “climbing” or getting up the rostrum, vs “freeing” the rostrum. Or people cutting in at p3, or people climbing it in good style, or junk showing. I don’t think anyone in any of those categories has special privilege over another, or a even necessarily a more worthy opinion. I was just commenting that most crushers I have met, know, or have climbed with don’t seem to have these “other parties” dramas, or it just doesn’t bother them. I’m sure my anecdotal point isn’t always the case, but something I thought of reading this thread.

Two, my statement about previous generations and previous generations ethics, was just that, had nothing to do with your username. There is plenty to be admired and respected about ethics and style from earlier generations, and plenty that was holding folks back.

Three, yes, we should all try to have fun and treat each other with respect.

Four, I’m not pro or anti cut in at P3 of a multi pitch classic, I just don’t think this thread, or any posting on mp is going to have any real effect on whether people do that or not. It’s also all a bit in a gray area, so that makes the opinions and discussion more interesting, but also requires good communication, patience, and back up or alternate plans when dealing with outside.

Alexander Blumwrote:

Cole Darbywrote:

C D wrote:

I wouldn’t say I’ve “climbed” it   

But I’ve been on it 

I’ve just never been on it with that many parties

In your highly specific hypothetical, I agree, that a party cutting in at the ledge would be a bit of a party foul, but I also don’t think there is anything you can do to stop someone from cutting in, and I’m confused as to why people think a junk show party going ground up, if you are behind them, would somehow make your day better.

If the route is that crowded, I wouldn’t get on it personally.

that “highly specific hypothetical” was my experience last saturday (except no one cut in, so everyone had a great day despite the crowds). i would imagine it was a pretty typical fall saturday on an ultra-classic, extremely well protected, easy to access 5.11 in the most famous climbing area in the US.

i don’t know who in this thread said a junk show climbing this route ground-up would be any better. it’s still rude, just in a different way.

sure, we all “have a right” to the same rocks. it’s still good to consider how your actions will impact the experience of others. on the rostrum you can’t see how many parties are in line until you’ve finished the raps. once you’ve finished the raps you’re kind of committed. getting down there and seeing one junk show who “woke up earliest and therefore deserve their spot” holding up 3-5 parties would be utterly infuriating, IMO

I hear you, but if a “slow” party gets on a route, they still have a right to be there. Hopefully they won’t slow other folks down too much, and can let people pass. But that’s just how it is. Better style doesn’t get you better access or more privilege on the route, it’s just better style.

So my point is, do we want this hypothetical “slow” party to work under the assumption that cutting it at p3 is not ok, and have that same party just go do their slow thing ground up? Would that be better?

Cole Darbywrote:

I hear you, but if a “slow” party gets on a route, they still have a right to be there. Hopefully they won’t slow other folks down too much, and can let people pass. But that’s just how it is. Better style doesn’t get you better access or more privilege on the route, it’s just better style.

So my point is, do we want this hypothetical “slow” party to work under the assumption that cutting it at p3 is not ok, and have that same party just go do their slow thing ground up? Would that be better?

Let’s revisit the second cut-in party we encountered when we tried to climb the Rostrum the other day.  The follower promptly informed me this was his first pitch in the Valley.  He was essentially warming up on, and being introduced to Valley climbing, on the crux of the Rostrum.  He began hanging upon encountering the first real finger lock, so about 10 feet into the pitch.  It seemed like he was unable to do most any of the moves on the pitch.

To answer your question, in my opinion yes, they would have been far better off going ahead and starting from the bottom.  They could have warmed up on some relatively easier pitches, and climbed an extremely high quality pitch 3.  There was still plenty of time in the day to do the whole route.  If they didn’t like what they saw after pitch 3, or were running out of time, they could walk off and come back another day.  Instead, they plugged up the route for every one else that day, which was us and at least 2 other parties.

I’m not against people pushing themselves or having adventures, thats a couple of the main reasons a lot of folks climb in the first place.  It’s the lack of consideration for others that gets to me.

I feel like cutting in on the Rostrum is distinctly different than some of the examples given up thread.  Such as someone cutting in on an El Cap route.  In those instances, everyone started on the ground and I feel like all is good in those examples.  Not sure about the Astroman example either, not sure that’s pertinent or common.  I wouldn’t know, the only time I tried to climb it, it was a complete junk show too! 

Yea, Jeff, fair point, they may have warmed up better with 1-2, and then enjoyed 3 instead of just being shut down. But that only works as a happy (happier) ending if they get to 4 and then let you pass or decide to bail.

Again, I go back to thinking, as soon as he started flailing on 4, if he could have the ability to recognize the full situation and the other parties, then he could have the wherewithal to call it and clear the pitch much earlier, or have the ability to pull through and keep moving up the route at a reasonable pace. To me that’s the issue, more than the cutting in at 3 or not. I think that’s where there may be slight disagreement.

of course, it’s super wild to just hop into the valley, and hop on the crux pitch of rostrum, on a busy day, and with parties below you. That’s a gigantic lack of situational awareness, or ability to assess ones own skill level. If they had been actual crushers, that just onsight floated the crux pitch to warm up, then no harm no foul, if they kept moving up at a good clip. 

Also agree, on the not pertinent or common re: astro. The Astroman thing was a pure hypothetical point from me. While that stuff happens on el cap quite a bit, that would be an insane amount of work to check out a 10+R pitch.

Lack of consideration being crappy is something I think we can all get behind, for sure.

Pretty sure I was there that day (not the “slow” party in question, but above).  For what it’s worth, you guys could have easily finished the route.  A party that was solidly 2 pitches behind you, and also behind the slow party in question, finished with plenty of daylight to spare.  Y’all just got impatient IMO….

The plot thickens 

Indeed, I failed to mention there was a 3rd party that got on Blind Faith while we were coming up the first 3. Looked like they were moving well enough so I didn’t mention it.  I assume that was Ben & partner.  They most likely got ahead of the 2nd Rostrum party that was holding us, and the party behind us up.

Fwiw, the party Ben mentions that was solidly 2 pitches behind us, actually joined us at the base of pitch 4 on the ledge while we were waiting.  They were moving well.

Suppose we could have exercised a little more patience, or started earlier or whatever, all fair points. 

W K wrote:

...

Hmmm

Yep

W K wrote:

Sounds like they didn't fully cost the OS. Hope you don't encounter any more slow parties on valley ultraclassics

Well, therein lies my point of posting this.  As someone else posted up-thread: a route is only as classic as the experience of climbing it.  My only experiences of climbing the Rostrum have been tarnished by folks jumping in mid-way.  If you’re good with folks doing that on the Rostrum, then more power to you.  Personally, I didn’t want to sit at every belay for an hour, and my partner that day didn’t want that experience either, particularly on his first time on the route.  I think that kinda sucks, but thanks for your concern.

Part of the reason we bailed, aside from what I’ve already mentioned, is that we were fairly pissed.  I didn’t want to take that energy up the rest of the route with me, where we would have no doubt encountered the slow party in question.  We felt it best to walk away.