Rostrum Rant

Just want to say I think it’s incredibly lame when parties cut in on the 4th pitch.  I’ve climbed this route 1 3/8 times now, and on both times I’ve experienced parties cutting in line and causing delays.

First time, it was a party who was kind enough to pull their rope aside after getting through the crux and let us pass through.  I recall being frustrated at having to wait for an extended period of time, but at least this party was somewhat considerate and let us pass.

Yesterday was a different story.  2 parties decided to cut in by the time we reached the top of pitch 3.  First party, I was able to see hang all over pitch 5.  Also, they were carrying huge packs, for essentially a 5 pitch route, I’m sure that was fun on the upper pitches.  Second party to cut in, proceeded to hang all over pitch 4, while we sat and waited on the ledge for 45 minutes.  Maybe warming up on the Crux pitch of the Rostrum wasn’t the best introduction to Yosemite guys.  Long story short, we bailed.

Moral of the story is, if you’re going to elect to cut in on the Rostrum, I think you should at least be dialed in on the route, and not add to the cluster that occurs on this super classic route.  You fully cost my partner the experience of on-sighting this route.  Also, fwiw, I fully let the second parties second climber know my feelings regarding their actions, I’m posting this in hopes that future parties will be more considerate of others.

Just curious:  How does someone 'cut in' line?  Can't the folks in line say no?

Agree. Sorry you had a lame day. Hopefully the scenery and that 5 star 5.10 3rd pitch took the stink off.

Don’t see anything inherently wrong to cutting in, but folks have to think about other parties and sharing the playground like grown ups.

If someone is going to hang their way up P4, maybe they could have a) talked with you and your partner first b) pulled through the crux after it being clear the “send” wasn’t going to happen that day, more hard pitches await, and they are jamming up the route c) asked the following member of your party to trail a rope in exchange for the pass, etc. 

Maybe there are just too many climbers unaware of their capabilities as it relates to grades. Fine to go have fun and work a route. I TRd that pitch this summer for hours with two buddies. But we would have immediately gotten the fuck out of the way for a party trying to climb through or ground up.

This kind of behavior is not super cool, and should be probably be shunned more than it is. Have been behind a party at my local crag (Tahquitz) for almost 3 hours working p1 of a 5.11 classic. Again, fine to do that of the route is empty, but why can’t folks have a plan to get moving, bail, let folks pass through, communicate, be aware of their capabilities?

I’ll also say I’ve been there myself for sure, overestimating my capabilities, but hopefully you learn from it, and hopefully those getting on a route over their heads, that are about to junkshow, aren’t outnumbering other parties.

Maybe a lot folks think that behavior is ok? Trying to see things from the other parties perspective, and how to win them over, but I’m at a bit of a loss. 

Xamwrote:

Just curious:  How does someone 'cut in' line?  Can't the folks in line say no?

You can rap to the half way ledge at the bottom of the crux pitch without doing the lower part of the route.

Xamwrote:

Just curious:  How does someone 'cut in' line?  Can't the folks in line say no?

The Rostrum approach starts from the road ABOVE the climb.  You hike/rap down to the base, but you can traverse into the halfway ledge if you elect not to go down to the base.  So the OP is saying she/he wanted to do the full route (starting essentially from the valley floor), but then a later-arriving party traverses in above on the halfway ledge and starts the climb there.  The pitch starting at the halfway ledge is the crux of the route (11c thin crack) and perhaps isn't the best warm-up unless you are pretty strong on Yosemite crack climbing.  Apparently people traverse in and then epic on this pitch, log-jamming parties who are doing the full route.

There is really no good way to pass once this happens.

John RBwrote:

There is really no good way to pass once this happens.

if a junk show party wants to help make a pass happen feels like it can be done relatively quickly. Especially at the bottom of 4.

It sounds like the “climbing ranger” the OP encountered was not intent on doing the whole route and pulled their ropes for OP to pass. Seems pretty decent.

Is the argument that unless you are climbing at “x” speed per pitch, you aren’t allowed / it’s in really poor style / taste to traverse in above p3?

Generally I agree with OP that if you cut in above p3 to start your climb on P4, the crux pitch, and their are ground up parties on p3, at the least you need to be very considerate of other folks trying to get the whole route done. Especially with north face being the definition of a “classic” or “trade route”.

Edit: I feel like this thread has happened before. 

Imagine if you were attempting an onsight of a multipitch route like The Naked Edge (here in Colorado) or Astroman (in Yosemite) or whatever your local 5.11 classic is.  And as you approach the final pitch, you see a party rapping in from the top "just to work the last pitch".  

Some people won't even start a multipitch climb if there are parties above: fear of dropped gear, rockfall, getting stuck behind a slow party, etc.  Imagine thinking you're first only to have another party emerge ahead of you... you'd have no way to know it was going to happen.

Former Climber wrote:

I will boldly speculate that few, if any, of these cut-in parties would cut in line in their daily life, e.g. at a store checkout line or an airport check-in line, or even consider that behavior acceptable. After all, most folks are considerate and commonsensical people ... while not climbing. 

It is hard to predict what the scene will be like on the ledge when a cut-in party arrives, but I think you should not get on the regular route (whether lower the rope to P3 for warmup or start on P4) if there is a thru party coming up -- the goal is not to cause thru parties ANY delay regardless of intent to offer a pass. There is the excellent crack to the right (P1 of Blind Faith) that's almost always vacant. Run laps on that one if no one else is waiting for it until all thru parties are, um. through before you get on the regular route.

If I read it right, the ranger did not pull the rope -- she just pulled the rope aside. I know, slight nuance, but they are efforts of different scales. That was after having already caused OP some significant delay. 

I don’t disagree with anything you’re saying really, just wondering what the practical solutions are. For the culture and ethics being changed in a positive direction. Ultimately when we can’t communicate or share well, folks will always fall back on first party on gets to do whatever they want. There was a good runout podcast about this same topic recently. Chris and Andrew both had different takes.

It feels like reasonable folks can debate the finer points of these grey areas, and the logistics or tactics for us all to best share the playgrounds, 

But meanwhile seemingly more and more folks are showing up with their primary concern being their own experience, and are not part of that conversation, nor do they care to be. Ive observed a lot of on the fly rationalizing, to justify whatever stance allows them to do whatever is best for them that day.

Maybe experience and enough days outside, where someone has been in every spot, allows for more empathy and better handling of these scenarios, or maybe people just get more set in their ways. Again, not sure what the solutions are.

Id be inclined to think, back however long ago, the rostrum was hard and intimidating enough to filter out any seriously egregious behavior, but it sounds like this route has had these problems for a while. I’ve only been on it as a follower, and in bad (hot) conditions, so it’s always been empty.

I’ve usually found that communication goes a long way. I think in the OPs scenario, in terms of the party that caused them to bail, it would have gone a long way for the offending party to acknowledge the ground up party’s presence and in my opinion priority (although everyone may not agree with that). It’s not necessarily that you want this possible junk show party (I say possible because I wasn’t there) to be “forced” to start at pitch 1, and then have to wait behind them all day on all 8 pitches. So offending party could say something like:

-hey we’re gonna try to get this pitch done for next x minutes and if we can’t make it happen we’ll clear it, and get back to the ledge, or just French free through so you can be on your way, sound good?

I think that kind of scenario is exacerbated when the offending party seems to have no fucks to give, or isn’t even aware they are in a very questionable grey area of ethics.

Former Climber wrote:

Blowing someone's insight attempt is one thing. Some people also time themselves to gauge fitness and efficiency. Sure, if you reach the base behind other parties and get delayed on the route because of that, so be it, but it has to be a bit frustrating when it's caused by people who cut in line or treat the climb like a cragging playground -- working on lower pitches without any intention to top out. 

John RB, you seem to be asking people to put themselves in others' shoes. Would be nice if we all think that way. 

Who gets to use these tactics and who doesn’t? What routes and grades is it ok on and when is it not ok?

I feel like someone wanting to TR the last pitch of Astro, might make sense. It’s not quite the BY. But we all mostly agree no fixed gear can be added to that last pitch, so seems reasonable someone would want to check it out. 

In that scenario, it seems obvious they should do their best to make sure the pitches below them are empty, do it at a weird off time, and be ready to jug out immediately if they see or hear a party coming up on the pitch or at the last belay. In that case the worst thing thats happened is they gave the ground up party, 20 minutes of rest to think about not breaking their ankles or legs.

I guess what im getting at is just saying don’t ever do x tactic on x route, isn’t going to stop that from happening, so maybe reinforcing why ground up party has right of way, and reinforcing the need for people to minimize any inconvenience they cause, may be worthwhile.

ive been out on TRS’s, of multi pitch routes, to work laps on crux pitches. I approach in the dark to minimize impact, and I usually pre rig a rappel so I can be out of the way of a ground up party in less than 20 minutes. I could just go junk show the routes ground up, clogging up pitches for hours, like I see happening all the time during the day (after I’ve already switched over to more obscure / empty routes) 

Would that be better? (This anecdote is only to illustrate a point, don’t need any help on this one lol)

I love a good rant. 

I think the Rostrum is unique for a few reasons. First, it's a super-classic: it's long enough to be a great day out but not so long as to be overwhelming; it stacks classic pitch after classic pitch; the overhanging wall looming above you, the river below, and the canyon up and down the way make for incredible position, and there's a real feeling of commitment when you pull the rope after rapping in. Up is the only way out. Getting up it at all is a big step in one's Valley career; actually freeing all the moves in one go is a much bigger step (and one I have yet to take!) 

Second, it's a grade that is challenging but attainable for a lot of climbers. And with safe cruxes, it's a potentially a good route for the budding 5.11 climber to challenge themselves on. 

And third, that pesky halfway ledge provides an escape valve for for the slow and unready along with the aforementioned option to cut in.

For me, given that the first 3 pitches are super classic (especially pitch 3!) and you have to commit to them by pulling your rope, I absolutely think that the experience of those doing the full route should be prioritized over half way interlopers. I don't think there's anything wrong with working the crux off the ledge, or doing it as a 5-pitch cragging route as long as no one else is coming up (good luck with that on a weekend). But people taking the halfway approach should recognize that their style is poorer and should yield to those doing the full route.

This rule is consistent with several other generally-accepted norms in climbing. Better style--undertaking a more elegant route with greater challenge and greater risk--should be encouraged within reason. And on long routes, first in line goes first.

On the Rostrum, the line starts at the bottom, not on the ledge. If you cut in, wait.

(and if you do rap to the bottom, clean up your f***ing toilet paper. You lose all rights if you poop at the bottom and don't bury it EXTREMELY well take it out with you (thanks to AV for correct edit.)

Our softman version of this: 

Led After Seven P1 to link into After Six. 

A Group of 6 hiked around P1 and cut in front of us to slowly try to climb / cluster F the whole route. We bailed and hiked to Glacier Point that day. Usually climbing harder helps avoid this, but seems the Valley is full of inconsiderate climbers. 

I feel your pain, OP.

I live in the Valley and I've done the Rostrum probably 20 times now. Love that route. 

I feel your pain and agree, if you're going to cut in on the 4th pitch, you have to be FAST and time it right so you don't get in the way of those below you. As long as you are cruising, its NBD if you cut in. If you inconvenience the party below you, even for a few minutes, its not OK

I disagree. I have done the route both from the bottom & from the ledge, and also have been thwarted by crowds 3 times. I don't view it differently than if someone traverses in from another route. There are multiple places where one could traverse in from Blind Faith & vice versa, plus all types of variations to both routes; the ledge is simply another variation. People are not required to only climb routes according to the original topo.

Sure it sucks to get on that ledge & see a crowd, but such is life when you climb at crowded places. I'm sure it sucks to be halfway up El Cap and have another party join your route from another line, but it happens sometimes when climbing on such a crowded wall, and doesn't seem to be regarded as "cutting in line."

Should people starting on the ledge be considerate of those climbing from the bottom? Of course. But people climbing from the bottom should be just as considerate to those starting from the ledge. Arriving on that ledge in a huff & expecting everyone to get out of your way is not a recipe for success. I am NOT saying  that is how it went down in the OP, just a general PSA.

At one of my local crags (Isolation Canyon) there is a ledge 1/4 way up the cliff that most people start on. Several of the routes have a bottom pitch that are less-often climbed. If one starts at the bottom, they might arrive to the ledge to find others already climbing the higher pitches. Such is life at a busy crag.

Anyway that's just a different perspective. Feel free to ignore it. Cheers!

There’s the “consensus” opinions of the way things should be, with folks having very clear thoughts on what the “rules” should be,

and then there’s the reality of what’s actually happening, and what people are encountering outside at busy/popular areas.

I guess I was trying to make a case for respectful dialogue with folks outside, when we run into these scenarios, as a harm reduction approach. Being empathetic to the party in front of you, or the party that “got their first”, and hoping that will stir the same response in them. Even if it doesn’t at least you can keep your own side of the street clean and not carry resentments around, maybe? And maybe that possibly gets a better result instead of just feeling good being right about ethics as we angrily wait behind parties doing things the “wrong” way. (In no way am I attempting to characterize the ops story in that hypothetical, as without hearing the other parties take, it sounds like they were as patient as anyone could expect to be, and still had a giant dump taken on their day) 

The best routes become the most popular routes and then the crowds, the caked on chalk, and the polished holds start to make other routes effectively better. The Rostrum also has a relatively easy approach and return, so at the risk of stating the obvious: do the route on the right day in December or January instead of October, and do some of the other more obscure crack climbs when it’s peak climbing season. There is no good solution for the OP’s situation other than that, or by simply summoning a boat load of patience.

From the era of the FFA of the Rostrum, and later:

Plumb Line, and Hot Line, Elephant Rock.

Relatively new stuff on Fifi Buttress

Windchill, Windfall, Wind Jammer, and other newer routes around The Widows Tears

Bridalveil East, Beggars Buttress, East Buttress of Lower

North Buttress of Middle, The DNB, The Kor Beck, Bircher Williams

The Crucifix, Northeast Buttress, Book of Job on Higher

Chouinard Herbert and Steck Salathe

Basket Case and Milestone on Basket Dome

Freestone and Center on Geek Towers

The Good Book

Hawkman’s Escape and Rambling Rose on Lower Brother

Left Side, Center, and Dihardral on Slab Happy Pinnacle 

Moratorium on Schultz’s Ridge

The Gold Wall and other newer stuff in The Ribbon Falls Amphitheater

I haven’t climbed in the Valley in years, and I’m sure there are more routes in that category but I bet most of those are empty most always. The Rostrum is really only as classic as the overall experience of climbing it is.

Ever heard of waking up early and climbing fast enough that the crew that probably slept in and is starting on P4 gets there after you?

Funny enough, the one time I did the rostrum was over two days. Day one, rapped to the base and spent 6 hours climbing to the midway ledge sitting behind incredibly slow parties, hiked to the rim and climbed somewhere else that evening. Day two, hiked down to the midway ledge, and started leading the 11 pitch as the first of many, many teams reached the midway ledge. We had completed the pitch before the second reached the belay, and by the time they cleared that pitch we were practically pulling over the top. That first team must’ve started climbing at 4 am based on their pace, there’s no way I’m getting up earlier than that, and sadly, I think that’s pretty much true of every popular route in Yosemite.

After that experience I’ve pretty much avoided the valley for the last 5 years. Sounds like it’s only gotten worse.

Kevin Worrallwrote:

The best routes become the most popular routes and then the crowds, the caked on chalk, and the polished holds start to make other routes effectively better. The Rostrum also has a relatively easy approach and return, so at the risk of stating the obvious: do the route on the right day in December or January instead of October, and do some of the other more obscure crack climbs when it’s peak climbing season. There is no good solution for the OP’s situation other than that, or by simply summoning a boat load of patience.

From the era of the FFA of the Rostrum, and later:

Plumb Line, and Hot Line, Elephant Rock.

Relatively new stuff on Fifi Buttress

Windchill, Windfall, Wind Jammer, and other newer routes around The Widows Tears

Bridalveil East, Beggars Buttress, East Buttress of Lower

North Buttress of Middle, The DNB, The Kor Beck, Bircher Williams

The Crucifix, Northeast Buttress, Book of Job on Higher

Chouinard Herbert and Steck Salathe

Basket Case and Milestone on Basket Dome

Freestone and Center on Geek Towers

The Good Book

Hawkman’s Escape and Rambling Rose on Lower Brother

Left Side, Center, and Dihardral on Slab Happy Pinnacle 

Moratorium on Schultz’s Ridge

The Gold Wall and other newer stuff in The Ribbon Falls Amphitheater

I haven’t climbed in the Valley in years, and I’m sure there are more routes in that category but I bet most of those are empty most always. The Rostrum is really only as classic as the overall experience of climbing it is.

That’s a good list, thanks for the suggestions.  We climbed some of those on this trip actually, Moratorium & Gold Wall specifically.  Also checked out Fifi on a previous trip.  Agreed that all of those had fewer crowding issues.

Got a good look at the Crucifix from Higher Cathedral Spire on a previous trip so that was on my radar but looked awfully cold for this trip. Same for Book of Job, that’s always been an appealing looking line.

I’ll look into the rest in more detail, thanks.

If it makes you feel any better, a few years ago a friend and I climbed astroman (both clean) and were down super early in the day. So we headed to the Rostrum to try linking them both…long story short, there was a party of 3 practicing aid on it, still on pitch 2 and 3. The two followers were re-aiding the pitches on TR. So we got stuck for so long that at sunset we climbed the crux clean and bailed on the link up in order to make it to a friend’s birthday that evening. :/

So I’d advise not practice aid on the Rostrum:)

SirTobyThe3rd Mwrote:

If it makes you feel any better, a few years ago a friend and I climbed astroman (both clean) and were down super early in the day. So we headed to the Rostrum to try linking them both…long story short, there was a party of 3 practicing aid on it, still on pitch 2 and 3. The two followers were re-aiding the pitches on TR.

We’ve got a winner 

WOW WA WEE WOW

People practicing aid on the rostrum, with multiple “laps” for the followers

with a free aspiring rostroman party stuck behind

but hey, at least they didn’t cut in above pitch 3 on the ledge, amiright? 

No, they were on P2 when we caught up to them. We actually ended up giving them a ride back to the valley and they said they were gonna go for the Salathe. After watching them in action we politely encouraged them to downgrade their El Cap goals to the Nose, or something like the south face of Washington column. Mostly because the wide climbing on the Salathe would be hard. :)