Why didn't the YDS remain decimal?

They should use colors. Blue is super easy cuz its pretty chill but like black/neon green would be hard shit for sure.

Ignatius Piwrote:

I'm afraid I have to completely disagree with this. 

And your wrong, you don't use it every day, you're wrong.

Let's take one very standard  grade and see what it could mean

E3 5c

Reasonably well protected fairly cruxy

Crux off the ground but very run out after

Well protected crux but fairly spaced gear

Very well protected and fairly sustained

A well protected route that's fairly cruxy but in a very committing location like an abseil in tidal sea cliff.

One grade 5 different interpretations, I've seen all 5 be an e3 5c and don't even get me started about how broad a difficulty a 5c covers. What even is a 5c move? It's based on an antiquated bouldering grade that hasn't been used in 40 years, yet routes are graded on a single move not a sequence. It gets even worse once you hit 6b and 6c, both of which have an even bigger gap. Tech 6c ranges from French 7c to 8c. 

All in all its a shit system.

that guy named sebwrote:

And your wrong, you don't use it every day, you're wrong.

Don't quite understand your point there. Like most people I don't climb every day, but what's that got to do with it? Do you climb every day?

Let's take one very standard  grade and see what it could mean

E3 5c

Reasonably well protected fairly cruxy

Crux off the ground but very run out after

Well protected crux but fairly spaced gear

Very well protected and fairly sustained

A well protected route that's fairly cruxy but in a very committing location like an abseil in tidal sea cliff.

One grade 5 different interpretations, I've seen all 5 be an e3 5c and don't even get me started about how broad a difficulty a 5c covers. What even is a 5c move? It's based on an antiquated bouldering grade that hasn't been used in 40 years, yet routes are graded on a single move not a sequence. It gets even worse once you hit 6b and 6c, both of which have an even bigger gap. Tech 6c ranges from French 7c to 8c. 

All in all its a shit system.

It's a grade, not a route description. How much information do you need from the grade? In every case you mention, if the E3 grade is correct and you consistently lead E3, then you should be able to manage it. You can find all of the variables that you list on pretty much any route anywhere; what does VII, or 20 or 6b R2, or 5.10d PG tell you that E3 5c doesn't?

Why did we stop at 5.10d? though? I'm pretty sure I've climbed a few 5.10z routes. 

cubist Awrote:

Can someone please explain to me why the "decimal system" characteristic of the Yosemite Decimal System was so needlessly abandoned by our forebears? I've always heard that class 5 refers to technical climbing and that the originators of the YDS didn't foresee difficulties advancing past 5.9, and once they did they added the 5.10 grade, but that doesn't make sense. The whole concept of a decimal system is that it's open-ended. Since the grading system is an artificial conceit, not a natural law, why not simply modify it such that class 5 refers to beginner/moderate climbing, class 6 is advanced, class 7 expert, class 8 extreme. I.e. instead of going to 5.10, 6.0 would be the logical next grade, and 5.10a = 6.0, 5.10b = 6.1.....5.14d = 7.9, etc. This would be more akin to the French style of grading. Why didn't the climbers of yore take this logical step? As usual, the U.S. insists on maintaining a mathematically incoherent system while the rest of the world shakes their collective heads (see the Imperial System). I hereby petition to make the YDS true to its moniker and revert it back to a proper decimal system. I'm sure some similarly enlightened MP'er with deeper pockets than me will step forward to cover the cost of reprinting the guidebooks. 

42

Having been climbing at local crags in New England the last few years, I no long understand why we need any grades above "old school 5.9+"

There are no grades 'above' "old school 5.9+".

5.9+ is actually the softmans grade and not the hardmans grade. 5.6+ is the grade real hardman grade.

Alan Rubinwrote:

There are no grades 'above' "old school 5.9+".

I think the difficulty sequence is 5.9-, 5.9, 5.10a, 5.9+,...

rgoldwrote:

I think the difficulty sequence is 5.9-, 5.9, 5.10a, 5.9+,...

Absolutely. 5.9+ is certainly harder than 5.10a, and in some cases harder than 5.10c. One of several sandbag grades of which to be wary.

Think of the VDS as being an early incarnation of the versioning system in place for software. When one gets to version 5.9 one would think the next version would be 6.0 but no it is 5.11. And the there are minor revisions a, b, c, and d. Which are like dot releases. 5.11.1

Randywrote:

Absolutely. 5.9+ is certainly harder than 5.10a, and in some cases harder than 5.10c. One of several sandbag grades of which to be wary.

We once attempted a 5.9+ in NH bitd. The route gets a modern grade of 11b. 

Nate Awrote:

Exactly this. It would be much more intuitive and easier to grok that silence is 23 grades harder than any random .10

I understand that the Australian system is basically this way. Seems nice and simple. 

I don’t find this intuitive FWIW, though a lot of that is probably just unfamiliarity. Much easier to think 5.15 is world class, and 5.15d is the top of that range. Similarly, 5.14 is elite, 5.13 advanced, 5.12 intermediate, and so on.

Like I said, maybe it’s a function of not thinking in individual grade sequences. But I quite like thinking in terms of the number jumps — 12, 13, 14, etc.

But to go a step further I think YDS should only apply to trad, anyway. YDS for traditional, French for sport, V-grades for boulders. Maybe throw in British grades for overall spice-level just to make them feel included. :P

Dan Schmidtwrote:

I don’t find this intuitive FWIW, though a lot of that is probably just unfamiliarity. Much easier to think 5.15 is world class, and 5.15d is the top of that range. Similarly, 5.14 is elite, 5.13 advanced, 5.12 intermediate, and so on.

Like I said, maybe it’s a function of not thinking in individual grade sequences. But I quite like thinking in terms of the number jumps — 12, 13, 14, etc.

But to go a step further I think YDS should only apply to trad, anyway. YDS for traditional, French for sport, V-grades for boulders. Maybe throw in British grades for overall spice-level just to make them feel included. :P

Please. 5.12 isn’t remotely “intermediate”.

amariuswrote:

I would argue that the Ewbank system is the most logical - starts with 1, is open ended, rate difficulty increment is 1.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_(climbing) 

I am sort of pleasantly surprised that the American V scale is, actually, logical - V grades start with 1, is open ended, difficulty increment is 1. Thank you, Mr. Sherman

All in favor or Ewbank and V-Scale say “I”

in all seriousness MP should just list everything in the comparable Ewbank grade with YDS or whatever French/ British/ German/ Norwegian/ whatever grade afterwards. After 10 years of everyone getting their minds around Ewbank we could realistically phase out all the other options and finally have a common language (without inadvertently inventing a new system)

Marc801 Cwrote:

Please. 5.12 isn’t remotely “intermediate”.

It’s what, novice? Advanced? Not sure what side the snark’s coming from. But in any case it seems like a ton of people climb 5.12. 

Like all grades it’s all relative.

If you consider that 5th class starts at 5.0, 5.12 wouldn’t logically be “intermediate”, even if “a ton” of climbers can climb 5.12. There are many tons of climbers that can’t. Plus don’t forget “5.12” includes 12d.

If you call the first 5th class rating - 5.10 - that gets broken into letter grades “novice” level, then it makes sense to call 5.12 intermediate.

Dan Schmidtwrote:

It’s what, novice? Advanced? Not sure what side the snark’s coming from. But in any case it seems like a ton of people climb 5.12. 

They do - 5.12 is absolutely intermediate.

Ever read Bridwell’s article “The Innocent, the Ignorant, and the Insecure”?

Climbing has always had its downraters

https://www.rockandice.com/features/the-innocent-the-ignorant-and-the-insecure-ascent-2/

Alexander Blumwrote:

They do - 5.12 is absolutely intermediate.

Well that sucks.  After decades climbing, I’m on the way back to novice.  Lol.