Tying into the belay loop?

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

Every auto belay in every gym uses a locker connected to the belay loop.  

As to the parents, how are they to know any better.   If I were trying to make a system as idiot proof as possible and have a figure 8 pre tied with a locker on it so all the “no nothing parents” just have to clip the locker to the belay loop.  Easy to inspect. 

Thats apples and oranges. You don't tie into a rope when youre auto belaying, do you? Parents would be the only idiots demanding an extra protection point beyond a figure 8'd rope tied in on a roped climb. A climbing coach sure wouldn't. Maybe you "no nothing", but who's to say? The post stated they "tie off to a figure 8 & locker", not a figure 8 to a locker. I could be reading that wrong though.

Ignatius Piwrote:

In paragraph 6 - 'Tying In' - Petzl certainly just says "Tie in to the two tie-in points", and the same in French; no mention of the belay loop - although one could argue that if the correct method has been specified there is no subsequent requirement to list and eliminate all other potential methods.

That's my point. When manufacturers say to use one method, it doesn't mean there aren't other methods available. Case in point: most harness manuals show the tie-in knot as a re-threaded figure-8, but plenty of climbers (myself included) use other knots to tie-in as well. When someone claims "almost every manufacturer stating this is not correct", then they need to show that manufacturers specifically stating this method is incorrect. So far the evidence presented shows one manufacturer (BD) cautions against tying in directly to the belay loop, and it's a caution (exclamation mark) not a warning (skull and cross bones). One manufacturer is a far cry from "almost every manufacturer".

I was friends with the former technical director of hard goods at Mammut and then Edelrid.  I remember him telling me about tying in to the belay loop and it was totally fine and something people did in Germany (he was Swiss but lived near the border.) 

Not sure I’d consider it dangerous, more just different and not practical.  I’ve done it a couple times in weird situations but never for a normal climbing scenario.  I’ve clipped with lockers to my belay loop hundreds of times but again never in a normal climbing scenario.

JJ Burnswrote:

A few months ago I climbed with a guy that was using a Simond harness that didn't have tie-in points. You could only tie in on the belay loop, and there was a tiny image of the figure eight stitched on the belay loop.  

Interesting!  Thanks for passing that along.

Mikey Schaeferwrote:

I was friends with the former technical director of hard goods at Mammut and then Edelrid.  I remember him telling me about tying in to the belay loop and it was totally fine and something people did in Germany (he was Swiss but lived near the border.) 

Yeah, apparently Edelrid thinks it's fine, it's in the technical documentation is being OK. The regional and nationalistic differences in climbing techniques I always find interesting. Physics affects everyone the same way, but some techniques evolve to be quite different.

JJ Burnswrote:

A few months ago I climbed with a guy that was using a Simond harness that didn't have tie-in points. You could only tie in on the belay loop, and there was a tiny image of the figure eight stitched on the belay loop.  

Maybe this harness?

https://www.decathlon.com/products/climbing-harness-easy-3?variant=1517323911181&gclid=CjwKCAjw-sqKBhBjEiwAVaQ9a6fVz-0lhC2gusCvVgknM9y_uJPPclDIBxL-YpWpeS2bObMvFA6g8BoC0HEQAvD_BwE

aikibujinwrote:

That's my point. When manufacturers say to use one method, it doesn't mean there aren't other methods available.

<< could argue that if the correct method has been specified there is no subsequent requirement to list and eliminate all other potential methods.>> 

Just to clarify here: when I referred to "other potential methods" I didn't mean other safe/acceptable methods - although they might be; I meant any other way of doing it, safe or otherwise, that the human brain can concoct. My point is that if the manufacturer has specified a correct way of using a piece of gear, then - by definition - all other ways are considered unsafe. If you then decide to use your judgement and experience to overrule the manufacturer's recommendation it may be entirely reasonable - you may well have decades more experience than the manufacturer - but it's then your call, and your responsibility. And should it, God forbid, come to a situation where lawyers are looking closely at the fine detail - I'd imagine that any scenario wherein you've apparently ignored a relevant manufacturer's safe usage instructions would pretty much leave you out in the cold. This may or may not be a problem!

Ignatius Piwrote:

My point is that if the manufacturer has specified a correct way of using a piece of gear, then - by definition - all other ways are considered unsafe.

Really? Ever read the instructions for using your slings?

Jim Tittwrote:

Really? Ever read the instructions for using your slings?

 Hi Jim. No, I haven't. I probably should have, but like you I'd been climbing for several years [decades?] before such instructions appeared, and thereafter largely ignored them.

I apologise for the informality; we actually corresponded several years ago - very helpfully, from my point of view. Does 'Stifte' ring a bell?

Current situation in Germany: DAV (German Alpine Club) teaches both methods and instructors are supposed to explain that harness manufacturers might recommend one method over the other. Outside of gyms you rarely see people using the belay loop as their tie-in point while most entry-level gym climbers do this.

But yes, I suppose we're weird that way. I exclusively learned the "figure eight through belay loop" method, roughly a decade ago. Then someone pointed out that I might want to look at my harness's manual...

Regarding kids and lockers tied to the rope: AFAIK accepted practice for some specific situations according to DAV, especially for birthday parties and such, with the (safety) benefits outweighing the risks. I mean, there's a reason most of us use a bowline but adult competitions use figure eights, right? 

In the Netherlands (and a lot of our climbing culture is an amalgamation of German, French and British practices) a lot of gyms use a locking biner with safety clip (such as the DMM Belay Master) as their primary tie-in points for top roping, with all routes except for the lead routes having fig-8's prepped. 

The gyms that don't use this method obligate you to tie in through both harness tie-in points and NOT the belay loop for both TR and Lead (although it would be technically totally safe, otherwise the method with the locking biner would be just as unsafe for top roping). 

Lead climbers are ALWAYS taught to use both tie-in points, and not the belay loop. Although I think this has more to do with the excessive length of the knot you would otherwise have in your system, than with the belay loop potentially failing. 

I have never tied in to the belay loop because of the extra length they add to the knot as well to the extra length of the belay apparatus. I think they get in way in general which is why I have cut them off of every harness I have ever owned.

Noel Z wrote:

The German Alpine Club says that both belay loop or hard points are approved, despite almost every manufacturer stating this is not correct.

^ So here's your claim.

Your evidence for that claim:

Many Petzl harnesses have images printed on the loop on how to tie in. Many others have plastic reinforced hard points where you are supposed to tie in. I've experienced many times the results of tying into the belay loop in Germany and its both dangerous (interference) and limiting (banshee belay only).

Section 6 here
https://www.petzl.com/sfc/servlet.shepherd/version/download/06868000001FM4PAAW

Section 6 does show the hard points as the correct way to tie in. But it also shows 3 ways that are explicitly bad, and it does not state that the belay loop is one of them. It does show girth-hitching to the belay loop as the correct way to tie in for Via Ferrata.

Figure 2 here:
https://blackdiamond-web.cdn.prismic.io/blackdiamond-web/f1fca6a1-99b5-460d-935b-caab93b8bd02_M10150_F+Harness+IS-WEB.pdf

Figure 2 shows tying into the belay loop with the "Risk of accident or injury" logo. There's a different logo for "Risk of serious injury or death", which is used for things like tying into the gear loop. So I guess they're saying you might get in an accident or get injured, but the injury probably won't be serious and you probably won't die. That's some strange messaging.

Sections 10 here:

https://www.climbingtechnology.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/IST51-7H171CTS1-S2_rev-2_04-21.pdf

Section 10 shows clipping into the belay loop with two opposite and opposed carabiners, which are also clipped to a figure 8 follow-through, as a valid tie-in. It doesn't explicitly show tying into the belay loop.

So you've got one out of three manufacturers saying that tying into the belay loop is incorrect, and they're not saying it's serious or deadly. The other two aren't saying anything exactly about it, but they're showing similar ways of connecting to the harness as being okay.

While there's certainly some ambiguity here, your "almost every manufacturer stating this is not correct" claim seems not to be in the PDFs you've linked.

Kevinmurraywrote:

I have never tied in to the belay loop because of the extra length they add to the knot…

Same here 

as well to the extra length of the belay apparatus.

This makes no sense to me. That’s what, almost 3”? Far easier to use the belay loop than monkeying around with the hard points. Never once thought there was too much extra length. Actually never thought about it.   

 I think they get in way in general which is why I have cut them off of every harness I have ever owned.

You’re doing it wrong.

Marc801 Cwrote:

Same here 

This makes no sense to me. That’s what, almost 3”? Far easier to use the belay loop than monkeying around with the hard points. Never once thought there was too much extra length. Actually never thought about it.   

You’re doing it wrong.

No a long enough really sharp razor knife does it the right way. Now a dull deer antler would be the wrong way.

an advantage of tying into the belay loop is that you can very easily replace the belay loop, which is really cheap, compared to replacing the whole harness. perhaps it’s the equivalent of a resole on your shoes?

Mammut are Swiss.

I've lived and climbed in Germany for over 30 years and been in the equipment industry for 20. Tying into the belay loop is perfectly acceptable despite your long-winded and tortous attempt to prove otherwise.

Noel Z wrote:

Mammut means mammoth in German. The factory is in the German speaking part of Switzerland and is just 20km from the its relative giant neighbour Germany. German climbing tradition, not to mention, the huge customer base in Germany, absolutely play a part in what Mammut chooses to publish.

And I'm correct in assuming you have been to neither of the two countries, right?

Noel Z wrote:

Mammut means mammoth in German. The factory is in the German speaking part of Switzerland and is just 20km from the its relative giant neighbour Germany. German climbing tradition, not to mention, the huge customer base in Germany, absolutely play a part in what Mammut chooses to publish.

Why don't you explain more about Germany to Jim Titt, a German-speaking German living in Germany? After all, the majority of manufacturers don't say that Switzerland is NOT basically Germany.

Whether it's attaching there or not is problem, will show itself over time. Where I live, an adjustable PAS is a must have item. Some new climbers buy one before their first set if quickdraws or first rope. Most instructions for a PAS state to attach to the belay loop.

I have a Petzl Connect Adjust PAS. The directions say to girth hitch it to your belay loop. I girth hitch it to my hard points, and have done so for years. Does this mean I'm already dead???