Tying into the belay loop?

Check out these two diagrams.

The first one is from the Edelrid website, technical documentation for their harnesses. It clearly shows a tie in directly to the belay loop. 

The second diagram is from the German Mountain and Ski Guides Association (VDBS); it has their logo for “approved technique.” You’ll notice the rope is also tied through the belay loop. 

This is of course not standard practice in North America, but I’d like to hear your thoughts on how common this is in Europe, if it’s a German thing, and what some of the benefits are. 

Thanks!

Lol. Nice catch.

A few thoughts.

1. Tying into the belay loop will, over time, concentrate a lot more wear on it, so I'd guess the harness will have to be retired more frequently.
2. Many of the concerns we hear about redundancy are silly, and this might be one of them, but the fact remains that with the hard points two things have to fail before the rope is detached.
3. Tying into the belay loop will cause the tie-in knot to hang a bit lower.  This might be an advantage on tight offwidths, but might otherwise make clipping slightly more awkward (very speculative).
4. If you keep an installed tether girth-hitched to the belay loop, there may be some interference.
5. One small advantage is that, with the anchor strand snugged appropriately, you get the advantage otherwise associated with belaying from the rope loop while still using clipping the device to the belay loop.
6. Another small advantage is that the climbing rope has to be threaded through only one point, so no problem missing one of the harness hard points.  This might make it a reasonable practice for the gym, where there is a lot of tying and untying, and where the autobelays already work this way.

Works fine. Especially compared to Alex free soloing.

Single-point harnesses usually have a horizontal loop. You don't get that here. And many harnesses have different designs that work perfectly with a single loop and are designed that way.

Obviously, everything rgold says comes into play. 

Seen people use slings and biners effectively, safely. I am sure the American Alpine Club would not approve. The old timers got by with far less. Better than not being tied in.

What if we just used a big locker on the harness instead of the belay loop and just clipped the end of the lead or TR belay into the locker?  

Is the Edelrid drawing you posted above from the technical manual for a specific harness?

Your comment related to the drawing implies the double tie-in option is for “all” Edelrid harnesses. Do they give some sort of global instruction on their website that the option applies to all their harnesses? 

An Alpine guide I know who ties this way says it reduces wear on the hardpoints if one does a lot of roped up walking. Mammut also show this as acceptable practice.

Adding on to what Noel Z said, the higher ups at Edelrid came into my workplace and we talked climbing. I brought up that their rock climbing harnesses that we sell show in the instructions (sewn onto the inside of the harnesses waistbelt) that tying into the belay loop was also an acceptable option. They told me that is what people in Germany do.

Noel Z wrote:

The German Alpine Club says that both belay loop or hard points are approved, despite almost every manufacturer stating this is not correct.

Reference?

Noel Z wrote:

Many Petzl harnesses have images printed on the loop on how to tie in. Many others have plastic reinforced hard points where you are supposed to tie in. I've experienced many times the results of tying into the belay loop in Germany and its both dangerous (interference) and limiting (banshee belay only).

Section 6 here
https://www.petzl.com/sfc/servlet.shepherd/version/download/06868000001FM4PAAW

Figure 2 here:
https://blackdiamond-web.cdn.prismic.io/blackdiamond-web/f1fca6a1-99b5-460d-935b-caab93b8bd02_M10150_F+Harness+IS-WEB.pdf

Sections 10 here:

https://www.climbingtechnology.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/IST51-7H171CTS1-S2_rev-2_04-21.pdf

If you are sceptical, then please do your own research, testing and manual reading.

To be fair, only your second link from BD explicitly say to not tie in directly to the belay loop. The links from petzl and CT dont, they just say the proper way to tie in is via the tie-in points, they omit any mention of using the belay loop. So I’d hardly call that support of “almost every manufacturer stating this is not correct.”. I don’t think it is a particular useful practice, and I don’t see any real benefit. If anything, it seems like it would hang obnoxiously low if leading, but I doubt there is any real safety concern. In the context of gym TRing, it is fairly common practice to clip a fixed locker on to the belay loop, so other than a little more wear potential, I don’t really see tying directly to the belay loop as very different than clipping a carabiner to the belay loop.

csproulwrote:

The links from petzl and CT dont, they just say the proper way to tie in is via the tie-in points, they omit any mention of using the belay loop.

In paragraph 6 - 'Tying In' - Petzl certainly just says "Tie in to the two tie-in points", and the same in French; no mention of the belay loop - although one could argue that if the correct method has been specified there is no subsequent requirement to list and eliminate all other potential methods. In the German instructions, however, they elaborate slightly: "Binden Sie sich parallel zum Sicherungsring in Beinschlaufensteg und Hüftgurtöse ein" - ie "Tie in through the legloop and waistbelt tie-in loops parallel with the belay loop". Note that they refer to the belay loop - 'Sicherungsring' - rather than the 'Anseilschlaufe' mentioned upthread. One wonders whether Petzl are aware of common practice in Germany and are here advising against it - albeit subtly.

aikibujinwrote:

Reference?

You can find all over in the German/Austrian/Swiss literature that both are acceptable as well as in Pit Schuberts work. When I worked as a DAV instructor it was taught as well as parallel tying on. In fact through the "belay loop" is usually the only recommended way if you are also using a chest harness.

As I said it's a popular method with alpinists, walking long distances with the rope chafing in the lower tie-in point ruins harnesses amazingly quickly. The safety benefit is clear, it is impossible to miss either the leg loops or the waistband when tying on.

For the younger kids in comps, they tie off a figure 8 & locker to the belay loop.

Tying into the belay loop used to be pretty common way back when that style of harness started to emerge.  I remember it being very common in the late 80's early 90's

Anna Brownwrote:

Is the Edelrid drawing you posted above from the technical manual for a specific harness?

Your comment related to the drawing implies the double tie-in option is for “all” Edelrid harnesses. Do they give some sort of global instruction on their website that the option applies to all their harnesses? 

Anna, good question. I did not click every harness on the full website, but I looked at three or four. They all link to the same PDF showing this, so I assume they approve the technique for all of their harnesses. Here's the link for one, have a look.  https://media.edelrid.de/images/attribut/54507_GAL_Gurte_Sport_ANSICHT.pdf

Noel Z wrote:

The Germany word for belay loop is Anseilschlaufe, which literally means Tie-In-Loop.

I climb in Germany and almost everyone here ties into their belay loop. When I tie into my hardpoints, I am often asked why. I would never tie into the belay loop. Not as a standard practice. I have seen some really fuzzy worn belay loops in Germany. I have nothing against a PAS, which most people in Germany also use exclusively at the belay, but when you are leading the next pitch on a multipitch route and you see your belayer has a PAS, the rope and a belay device all on one belay loop, the potential interference is disturbing. Hanging belays are shit show. A tensioned belay loop gives you few options should you suddenly need to rescue or change plans.

The German Alpine Club says that both belay loop or hard points are approved, despite almost every manufacturer stating this is not correct. The German Alpine Club knows its audience and climbers there love, I mean love, tradition, especially the dangerous ones like climbing on sandstone with knots as pro.. Their advice on most things is "whatever you are already doing is fine". In the Europe tradition is king. So, why don't the statistics show more accidents? My observation is that the actual safety system in Germany, up to 5.10d, is do not fall!
There are some good recommendations and research coming from the Germany Alpine Club, but there will always be, from a North American perspective, something contradictory, like tieing into the belay loop. Just chalk that up to not wanting to clash with tradition and not a something wise as I've seen many times why it is a worse idea.

Noel, thanks for sharing your experience on this. 

Jim Tittwrote:

As I said it's a popular method with alpinists, walking long distances with the rope chafing in the lower tie-in point ruins harnesses amazingly quickly. The safety benefit is clear, it is impossible to miss either the leg loops or the waistband when tying on.

Jim, thanks for posting this. I didn't think about walking along way on a glacier with the rope rubbing. The safety benefit of making sure you're in one solid place seems like one benefit. 

A few months ago I climbed with a guy that was using a Simond harness that didn't have tie-in points. You could only tie in on the belay loop, and there was a tiny image of the figure eight stitched on the belay loop.  

Danny Herrerawrote:

For the younger kids in comps, they tie off a figure 8 & locker to the belay loop.

& locker? I hate know-nothing parents.

So, let's say that you've tied into your belay anchor directly with the rope, a solid practice if you're swinging leads, and you're tied in to the belay loop. You're leaning out, weighting the anchor and your belay loop, ready to belay up your second. Maybe, to see your partner, or for comfort, you want to stand sideways, leaning out. Now you want to use that belay loop to, well, belay. Sounds like things could get a little weird.

Why, if your harness has re-enforced tie in points (most Do), would you ever even think of tying into the belay loop? What's the upside? 

Matthew Jaggerswrote:

& locker? I hate know-nothing parents.

Every auto belay in every gym uses a locker connected to the belay loop.  

As to the parents, how are they to know any better.   If I were trying to make a system as idiot proof as possible and have a figure 8 pre tied with a locker on it so all the “no nothing parents” just have to clip the locker to the belay loop.  Easy to inspect.