It is not ok to simul climb over another party

If you're driving a slow vehicle and people are piling up behind you, it's only courteous to pull aside and let others pass when a safe opportunity arises. Same for climbing as long as it's not a situation with a bunch of loose rock or ice and overhead hazard is significant. 

Climbing in Chamonix a fair bit the last 2 years has definitely made me more comfortable passing/being passed. It's one thing to get hung up about passing or not passing on some 5 pitch route, but on longer stuff, you start talking about real time cost being stuck behind a slow party. It's also not always realistic to be like "oh, there's a slow party 4 pitches up this 12 pitch route, guess the route is theirs today." Forcing someone to tailgate you for hundreds of feet of climbing is neither realistic nor remotely polite.

Luckily, in the alpine, you are rarely following one splitter crack, so if you're strong enough to pass, you are probably also strong enough to hop on a variation and climb around people without touching them.

All that aside, passing someone in the middle of leading a pitch is a big no-no, that seems clear (unless they're hanging on gear, then it might become acceptable in some cases). The proper strategy for a fast simuling team is to lurk behind a slow party pitching things out, wait for them to be screwing around with a transition at an anchor, then blow past before their leader can start moving again. On terrain easy enough for simuling, if the leader and follower are not very far apart, this can take less than a minute.

When pitching out, I always ask permission, but I have not always bothered when simuling and it's possible to scoot around a slow party using a variation. 

Darin Berdinkawrote:

If a route is clogged up with parties maybe find something else to go do.  Actually,  definitely go find something else to go do.   Certainly there must be all sorts of obscurities to discover in a range that amazing.

If no one sees you solo did you really solo?

Terry Ewrote:

Really?  How small?

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/120528945/accident-on-yosemites-manure-pile-buttress-41021

https://www.climbing.com/news/fallen-soloist-im-remorseful-for-what-happened/

In all of climbing it happened one time. That's a tiny chance, don't sweat it.

Petsfed 00wrote:

First, if the route is at all near the limit of either climber, you put the weaker one on lead. The fall forces are vastly better.

Is this true? I have ever simul climbed, but would not have thought of that.

Part of the problem nowadays is people doing advanced/higher risk things because they've seen other people doing them but don't really understand them and aren't ready for it. 20 years ago I saw very few other parties simul climbing. And few soloers. At least in Northern California / Yosemite. Now lots more people simul and as demonstrated on this thread many of them shouldn't be doing it (e.g. sketched followers). And I see a lot more free soloers too, even before the movie free solo came out. We are going to see accidents more often from both, moving forward.

Jamila W wrote:

Putting aside that I wouldn’t want to simul anything near my limit...wouldn’t it be better to have a setup like the OP talked about where the follower is coming up and the rope is on a micro traxion or other progress capture device?

Think about what happens when the leader falls: the second is pulled upwards, and peak force on the top piece is whatever it takes to arrest a leader's fall. Now think about what happens when the second falls and pulls the leader off too: peak force on the top piece is whatever force it takes to stop *both* climbers.

As for progress capture devices, I still keep my hand on the brake strand of a gri-gri, and I trust it more than anything else on the market. The risk of damaging the rope while still not stopping the fall makes the progress-capture option less straightforward.

I'd say that simul climbing is like soloing in that it requires a certain approach and state of mind. If you think falling for subjective reasons is even possible, don't simul it. If you can't climb it fast enough while pitching it out, don't climb it.

Astrid Reywrote:

Is this true? I have ever simul climbed, but would not have thought of that.

Yes. The consequences of a second falling are worse. A simul leader falling is not much unlike a regular leader falling. A second falling (with no progress capture devices on the rope) is likely to rip the leader off the wall as well. Now you're both falling and the leader will get pulled into their last piece potentially without any of the energy dissipation that you get from the rope. The key to simuling is don't fall...

Regardless, if the route is at either persons limit. I would suggest not simuling it at all. Just pitch it out. 

drew Awrote:

Regardless, if the route is at either persons limit. I would suggest not simuling it at all. Just pitch it out. 

This really cannot be repeated enough. If you're not at "I can comfortably onsite every single pitch I encounter at this grade" then don't simul it.

I was climbing a multipitch in Yosemite one day, and about halfway through I started hearing really loud arguing coming from below. As I’m belaying my partner who is about half way up the next pitch, this pair of simul-climbers come up on my ledge. They are in a full blown marital crisis, yelling at each other about who knows what, and the wife is threatening to “throw this ugly ring off the top”, all while in total climbing mode. Me and my partner just froze and let them pass because we couldn’t handle hearing them bitch at eachother any longer. We also waited a while so they were way clear of us just in case one of them decided to cut the other of the rope! Point is, that’s a damn good way to pass a group without asking. Take notes hobo Greg. 

Dylan Colonwrote:

If you're driving a slow vehicle and people are piling up behind you, it's only courteous to pull aside and let others pass when a safe opportunity arises. Same for climbing as long as it's not a situation with a bunch of loose rock or ice and overhead hazard is significant. 

Climbing in Chamonix a fair bit the last 2 years has definitely made me more comfortable passing/being passed. It's one thing to get hung up about passing or not passing on some 5 pitch route, but on longer stuff, you start talking about real time cost being stuck behind a slow party. It's also not always realistic to be like "oh, there's a slow party 4 pitches up this 12 pitch route, guess the route is theirs today." Forcing someone to tailgate you for hundreds of feet of climbing is neither realistic nor remotely polite.

Luckily, in the alpine, you are rarely following one splitter crack, so if you're strong enough to pass, you are probably also strong enough to hop on a variation and climb around people without touching them.

All that aside, passing someone in the middle of leading a pitch is a big no-no, that seems clear (unless they're hanging on gear, then it might become acceptable in some cases). The proper strategy for a fast simuling team is to lurk behind a slow party pitching things out, wait for them to be screwing around with a transition at an anchor, then blow past before their leader can start moving again. On terrain easy enough for simuling, if the leader and follower are not very far apart, this can take less than a minute.

When pitching out, I always ask permission, but I have not always bothered when simuling and it's possible to scoot around a slow party using a variation. 

This slow driving analogy is pretty good. I like your approach of not passing mid pitch, or using a variation so as not inconvenience the other party. You seem to care about the other humans in front of you. Unfortunately, I have seen those who don't care simul right past me and get in the way. 

To extend your analogy, you are driving up the pass in a snowstorm with chains on your vehicle at the recommended 25mph and the SUV rips past you in the unplowed middle lane throwing rocks into your windshield.  

Andrew Leafwrote:

This slow driving analogy is pretty good. I like your approach of not passing mid pitch, or using a variation so as not inconvenience the other party. You seem to care about the other humans in front of you. Unfortunately, I have seen those who don't care simul right past me and get in the way. 

To extend your analogy, you are driving up the pass in a snowstorm with chains on your vehicle at the recommended 25mph and the SUV rips past you in the unplowed middle lane throwing rocks into your windshield.  

I don't like this analogy very much at all. Driving has so many different contexts, commuting to work/picking up kids/going climbing etc. Yeah you should move over, because we all HAVE to share this road and we HAVE to get places, most of us.

Climbing is different. You take a day off to go dance up some rocks. The only thing analogous to a Highway is the way people seem to think trade routes should be handled.

A better analogy might be going to a food court and getting in line for a Subway sandwich and feeling like you should be able to pass a party that can't make quick enough decisions on whether they want white bread or wheat - wasting everyones free time on a Sunday with their refusal to commit to carbohydrates, bastards!

Don't get in line behind people, and if you do, feel welcome to politely ask if there is a good spot to pass. After all we are just climbing rocks, you can take your time (or climb something else).

Greg Daviswrote:

I don't like this analogy very much at all. Driving has so many different contexts, commuting to work/picking up kids/going climbing etc. Yeah you should move over, because we all HAVE to share this road and we HAVE to get places, most of us.

Climbing is different. You take a day off to go dance up some rocks. The only thing analogous to a Highway is the way people seem to think trade routes should be handled.

A better analogy might be going to a food court and getting in line for a Subway sandwich and feeling like you should be able to pass a party that can't make quick enough decisions on whether they want white bread or wheat - wasting everyones free time on a Sunday with their refusal to commit to carbohydrates, bastards!

Don't get in line behind people, and if you do, feel welcome to politely ask if there is a good spot to pass. After all we are just climbing rocks, you can take your time (or climb something else).

Where do you climb, primarily. Are you generally able to get out on weekdays, or only weekends?

Alexander Blumwrote:

Where do you climb, primarily. Are you generally able to get out on weekdays, or only weekends?

I climb all over california and NV, sierras tahquitz joshua tree red rock etc.

out a ton on the weekends but have a good amount of mid week days to climb as well.

All of my advice holds true regardless of if you are a weekend warrior trying to tick classics or a dirtbag that can pick and choose their dates.

If you want to only have weekends off and have a nice comfortable reliable job during monday-friday like most of humanity be prepared to be patient on popular routes or climb stuff off the beaten path - which is what I do most of the time.

There is NO problem with getting behind slow people if you are patient.

Greg Daviswrote:There is NO problem with getting behind slow people if you are patient.

Except weather and daylight 

shredwardwrote:

Except weather and daylight 

When the sun goes down ropes start to break

There's no discussion in this thread about "it was getting dark" it has 100% been "I want to pass them because they are slow" but we can pretend... that being said if that is a concern why are you getting on a route behind someone in the first place? If I am running out of time or there is a storm approaching I'm probably not going to line up behind someone, but if I do I'll probably watch them do a belay transition and guage if its worth it off that (usually isn't).

Andrew Leafwrote:

To extend your analogy, you are driving up the pass in a snowstorm with chains on your vehicle at the recommended 25mph and the SUV rips past you in the unplowed middle lane throwing rocks into your windshield.  

ah, i see you're familiar with the texans in CO....

There is NO problem with getting behind slow people if you are patient.

My opinion is colored by a couple experiences early in my climbing history. Twice my partners allowed someone to pass us without consulting me first. Both times we had to wait a ridiculous amount of time. The first time we had to wait 30-60 minutes at each belay on an 8 pitch route. I am patient but it added about 6 hours to our planned 4 hour climb. The other time was on a wall and the party was on one pitch for about 3 hours, getting me stuck in direct sun and really dehydrated (rest of the water was at the bottom of the pitch).

So I'm very wary about letting people pass. But I also think people shouldn't be getting on popular climbs who can't climb it in a reasonable amount of time, or at least be willing to let/offer faster parties to pass.

Greg Daviswrote:

When the sun goes down ropes start to break

There's no discussion in this thread about "it was getting dark" it has 100% been "I want to pass them because they are slow" but we can pretend... that being said if that is a concern why are you getting on a route behind someone in the first place? If I am running out of time or there is a storm approaching I'm probably not going to line up behind someone, but if I do I'll probably watch them do a belay transition and guage if its worth it off that (usually isn't).

To give an example of something that's happened to me, sometimes the time pressure can be pretty serious. In Chamonix a lot of the high alpine routes are accessed by the lift that goes up the Aiguille du Midi. If you don't get on the last lift down at 530PM, that's it, you're spending the night up there. I've passed a party (I did ask) up there because if I were to stay behind them and remain patient it would have ruined the rest of my trip (I had a climb of Mont Blanc that would have been canned if I was suddenly stranded on the wrong side of the mountain). The party I passed was intending to spend the night up there, and I didn't care to join them.

One thing I will add, woe betide anyone who passes another party then gets passed back 3 pitches later because they're not as hot of shit as they thought relative to the first team. If you subject someone to the hassle of being passed, you have a duty to stay the hell out of their way afterwards.

Andrew Leaf, "To extend your analogy, you are driving up the pass in a snowstorm with chains on your vehicle at the recommended 25mph and the SUV rips past you in the unplowed middle lane throwing rocks into your windshield". This happens in Tahoe every year, and I never stop to help out when I pass them a little later, and they're in the ditch.

Glen Priorwrote:

Andrew Leaf, "To extend your analogy, you are driving up the pass in a snowstorm with chains on your vehicle at the recommended 25mph and the SUV rips past you in the unplowed middle lane throwing rocks into your windshield". This happens in Tahoe every year, and I never stop to help out when I pass them a little later, and they're in the ditch.

To further extend the analogy, and similar to the George Carlin joke about maniacs or too slow. Typically I'm driving uphill on the pass in 4WD and there's people with chains on in the passing lane. They finally get over to the slow lane and I pass them. Then I go over the summit and start heading downhill, and the SUVs that were going 30 mph on the way up the hill, now SPEED up on the downhill and are going 45 downhill on slick roads. Now I'm in the slow lane watching them whiz past me until they're in the ditch. I'm surprised society functions as well as it does when I see the average driver. Around 75% of people tailgate on the freeway, but they think climbing is dangerous.