Why don’t more people use a Gri-Gri to rappel?

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

JC how would you use a blocker on this type of anchor?  Quick draw and  burgandy sling are back up to be cleaned by last person down.   Personally I would not rely on a blocker system for any route that I was unsure of the status of all the rappeling anchors. 

you use a naked thread and a blocker knot

please don't leave tat

Water running, ice freezing and forming. naked thread could have frozen in place before we pulled it. Common occurence at this venue. Also folks appreciate the belays here.   thanks for the lecture. 

Noel Zwrote:

My partner and I never use an ATC for rappeling. We both rappel on GriGris. Only the first down needs a blocking biner (clove hitch or stone knot). Once the first is down, both ends are attached to their harness (clove hitch), then an unmistakable signal is given that both strands are blocked. There can't be any communication errors here! Now, with both strands blocked, the top blocking carabiner is removed making stuck ropes a non-issue. All followers can now rappel on any strand individually, or simultaniously (if the anchor is bomber) with whatever device they want. The fist down should leave about 1.5m slack in the system. If more slack is needed the the clove can be adjusted even under the mild tension. Each rappeler should pick a strand and remove the slack before weighting it. If on multipitch, then the first down should attach to the belay to avoid being pulled away from the wall.
I always have an ATC in my bag, but these days it only comes out to solve problems or to loan out. On any unplanned for dangerous rope (wet, iced, thinner than allowed for) backup GriGri up with a munter or even monster munter on leg loop.

Nice, adding unnecessary steps to something that is super simple and making it more dangerous overall.

C. Defecto wrote:

JC,

Do this.  Throw a rope over a high tree branch and ascend the rope half way, then try to descend on a Grigri without opening up the handle.  Point proven.  I’m not going to dig up manufacturer’s recommendations for a product that came out over 20 years ago.  The Grigri in it’s first iteration (which is only what I am referring to) was intended for belaying, not rappelling.  I use mine almost exclusively for rappelling, daily.  

Ok I just tried it, and that was not so easy. I stand by my claim that I won't starve to death, but I would not want to do it for a pitch. Technique is to flip your elbow up to the sky, and press with the base of your thumb from the top. 

Nick, if I wanted to leave the tat, I'd just tie it with a loop of some sort, about 4" long. When you weight it, the loop squeezes shut, blocking against the knot in your rope. Very similar principles to soft shackles, if you are familiar with them. The issue with this is that the tat can get wedged into your blocking knot, making the pull difficult. This can be mitigated by dressing the blocking knot very well, and setting it with more tension than is typically necessary. Blocked raps can become a PITA, but it's a tool I like and through frequent use in low stakes situations I have learned when it's a bad idea (as far as rope pull).

However, I don't really use any of that gear or technique on ice, because for me it's generally a rap cord, ATC and naked threads. 

J Cwrote:

Ok I just tried it, and that was not so easy. I stand by my claim that I won't starve to death, but I would not want to do it for a pitch. Technique is to flip your elbow up to the sky, and press with the base of your thumb from the top. 

Nick, if I wanted to leave the tat, I'd just tie it with a loop of some sort, about 4" long. When you weight it, the loop squeezes shut, blocking against the knot in your rope. Very similar principles to soft shackles, if you are familiar with them. The issue with this is that the tat can get wedged into your blocking knot, making the pull difficult. This can be mitigated by dressing the blocking knot very well, and setting it with more tension than is typically necessary. Blocked raps can become a PITA, but it's a tool I like and through frequent use in low stakes situations I have learned when it's a bad idea (as far as rope pull).

However, I don't really use any of that gear or technique on ice, because for me it's generally a rap cord, ATC and naked threads. 

Casually: that loop-cinch-on-blocker-knot scheme sounds SPOOKY. I'm gonna try it in my backyard and then never even consider doing it again

Pat Lightwrote:

Casually: that loop-cinch-on-blocker-knot scheme sounds SPOOKY. I'm gonna try it in my backyard and then never even consider doing it again

I still clip it back to the rappel strand, so the system is "closed" so to speak. I'm not trusting just the jammed knot, even though that really is what is blocking it.

Also, I tend to us a double strand overhand own a bight as my blocking knot, leaving three loops, all of which I clip back to the rap strand. I don't really see anyone else using this knot, but it's awesome, especially for larger rings, 10mm QLs, etc. If you are doing a rap off of two horizontally spaced bolts, make sure the three loops are longer than the space between the bolts, else suffer added friction on the pull.

Eric Metzgarwrote:

I think anyone considering rappelling with a Grigri should watch this. I really hadn't thought about it before seeing it in action:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJ9qZSeGXh0

Whoa. Worst video I’ve ever seen. So far off on numbers. Very unrealistic. Rope stretch slowly gets removed as you rappel. You don’t get to rap 10 feet, then magically find yourself at 200 feet. So many more things wrong with that crap. He should stick to bulldozers. 

most folks doing multi pitch ice in the north east use doubbles or twins unless soloing when we use 6mm tags but just the single tag. Never seen a gri gri used for ice climbing.  the guides often build really big threads early season with  old climbing rope that ends up being a fixed bely most of the season . naked thread becomming more common though . I use them a lot but also know when not to use them. you do not want to be epicing on a big ice climb late in the day if you allready got worked getting up it. 

J Cwrote:

Ok I just tried it, and that was not so easy. I stand by my claim that I won't starve to death, but I would not want to do it for a pitch. Technique is to flip your elbow up to the sky, and press with the base of your thumb from the top. 

A much easier way out of this proposed fiasco is to simply friction hitch into the rope and swap the Grigri out for a munter or whatever.  It seems weird that whoever originally posted this failure mode acted like it was a death sentence.

Yo just BASE jump off routes y'all. Actually, scrap the 'chute. Just you and the void- couldn't be simpler.

I just had a wonderful trip down the memory lane of my user manuals and after finding manuals for gear I'd forgotten I ever owned, I found my 21 year old Grigri manual. It clearly says "The GRIGRI can be used as a descender for rappels up to 50m long. Longer descents are not advised due to risk of overheating". It also has a diagram of rappelling with a blocked strand, (without a skull).

Subsequent updates may have revised that permission, interestingly it also says "The GRIGRI is an autolock, but for maximum safety never let go of the free end of the rope".

Anyway, rappelling sucked with the original Grigri and the 10.5 or 11mm ropes of the time, I tried it once, 21 years ago, and never considered it again. I recently discovered that belaying a second with Grigri2 is so nice, far better than ATC in guide mode, so maybe I'll try rappelling with a Grigri2.

Ed

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

Water running, ice freezing and forming. naked thread could have frozen in place before we pulled it. Common occurence at this venue. Also folks appreciate the belays here.   thanks for the lecture. 

Whatifwhatifwhatif in most situations it will work. You're welcome for the lecture, keep on stroking your *I ice climb and leave trash to help others* icicle

In many situations it will work, In  quite a few situations especially at the Lake your ropes will freeze into the ice. sometimes the rope freeze in there  just from the time it takes to rappel  even without the naked threads.  

One of my funner earlier climbing memories was bailing from a solo of the Salathe at the Alcove down Shipoopi's fixed lines on Excalibur.  Wet old tatty dynamics that when rapped down with my gri and the piggy would send me for intermittent free falls as the sheath slid over the core.  An autoblock backup on the grigri was the solution that took me a few hundred feet to discover.  

If you are worried about rope creep on a blocked rap you can use the autoblock on the pull cord as well to equalize forces.  IMO, The grigri is the best device ever invented for rock climbing.

I'll buy a grigri the day they start selling a left-handed version. Gotta protest the continued discrimination or they'll keep walking all over us forever

Noel Zwrote:

My partner and I never use an ATC for rappeling. We both rappel on GriGris. Only the first down needs a blocking biner (clove hitch or stone knot). Once the first is down, both ends are attached to their harness (clove hitch), then an unmistakable signal is given that both strands are blocked. There can't be any communication errors here! Now, with both strands blocked, the top blocking carabiner is removed making stuck ropes a non-issue. All followers can now rappel on any strand individually, or simultaniously (if the anchor is bomber) with whatever device they want. The fist down should leave about 1.5m slack in the system. If more slack is needed the the clove can be adjusted even under the mild tension. Each rappeler should pick a strand and remove the slack before weighting it. If on multipitch, then the first down should attach to the belay to avoid being pulled away from the wall.
I always have an ATC in my bag, but these days it only comes out to solve problems or to loan out. On any unplanned for dangerous rope (wet, iced, thinner than allowed for) backup GriGri up with a munter or even monster munter on leg loop.

This sounds sketchy AF.

In this scenario, there's no way for the second rappeller to system check that their rappel strand is fixed before committing to the line. There's likely too much rope stretch to fully weight the device while still tethered to the anchor. The whole thing depends on effective communication between partners who are a full pitch apart, and a mistake will likely result in death.

Seriously, don't do this. It is much more unsafe than simul-rapping.

FWIW, I'm a grigri based climber... And I always bring an ATC and a prussik racked on a lightweight wire gate for emergencies and rappelling. It's not too much weight, and stacked rappels are almost always just as fast as simul rapping if your systems are dialled.

johndricowrote:

ATC and a prussik racked on a lightweight wire gate for emergencies and rappelling. 

I often carry a Gigi/Ovo for rapping. A lot of the multipitch climbing I do has rap descents, and it's more reliable to just carry a specific device for the descent to avoid blocked raps (this is mostly rope solo so can't simul rap). I like the Ovo style over ATC style because it racks flat on your harness and takes less space in your bag. It is also well suited to using with any random wire gate from the rack, rather than needing a specific shape carabiner like an ATC.

Today I did a Texas-rope-trick-blocked-rappel, definitely not for the first time, but it made me think of this thread. That's kinda one where if you need it to be explained, you aren't ready to use it yet.

Gri Gris at Seneca, what will they think of next.

johndricowrote:

This sounds sketchy AF.

In this scenario, there's no way for the second rappeller to system check that their rappel strand is fixed before committing to the line. There's likely too much rope stretch to fully weight the device while still tethered to the anchor. The whole thing depends on effective communication between partners who are a full pitch apart, and a mistake will likely result in death.

Seriously, don't do this. It is much more unsafe than simul-rapping.

FWIW, I'm a grigri based climber... And I always bring an ATC and a prussik racked on a lightweight wire gate for emergencies and rappelling. It's not too much weight, and stacked rappels are almost always just as fast as simul rapping if your systems are dialled.

If a partner has my trust, then I will certainly trust they will execute any easy and pre-agreed step ("after rappeling leave GriGri attached to block rope for me"), than I would some carabiner block which I can't see and which may snag when pulled. I too always have a GriGri and an ATC. In its essence it's a kind of stepped or delayed simmul rappel so yes, it should be understood before trying. 

Noel Zwrote:

If a partner has my trust, then I will certainly trust they will execute any easy and pre-agreed step ("after rappeling leave GriGri attached to block rope for me"), than I would some carabiner block which I can't see and which may snag when pulled. I too always have a GriGri and an ATC. In its essence it's a kind of stepped or delayed simmul rappel so yes, it should be understood before trying. 

My issue is that there's no way for you to check this system before trusting your life to it.

Sure, what you're doing will work fine as long as neither you nor your partner makes a communication mistake. But the reality is that shit does happen if you do anything long enough, and better systems systems are designed to catch those errors before they kill you.

I'm not saying I stack every rappel. I'm just saying that the reason stacked rappels are safer than simul-rappels which are safer than what you're doing is related to systems and process. When the consequence is literally your death, you need to do better than just plan on being error-free 100% of the time.