What I Should Have Said About Joe Kinder

https://eveningsends.com/what-i-should-have-said-about-joe-kinder/

Looking forward to the amount of overlap between people that say mean things on mountain project and then turn around and condemn Joe Kinder. 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Looking forward to the amount of overlap between people that say mean things on mountain project and then turn around and condemn Joe Kinder. 

Do you have any thoughts on the article itself?

Nathan Doylewrote:

Do you have any thoughts on the article itself?

Generally I am anti cancel culture and Joe should not have lost all his sponsor money, maybe a 40% reduction would have been fine? The issue I have with this specific take is that it didn't really mention any more meaningful amends that Joe attempted to make than the Instagram apology.  Bishart tries to frame this as one incident and I recall reading that Joe was dick to two people and it was more than just a single post.  If someone says one bad thing to one person, an apology seems adequate. This seems like Joe said multiple bad things, therefore he needs to make a larger effort to make amends. Partially cancelling Joe seems like it would have been best.

Too bad its too hard to get a grace and forgiveness movement going.   

Nathan Doylewrote:

Do you have any thoughts on the article itself?

What are yours? A link and a screen shot of a ’gram story doesn’t make an interesting post. 

Nathan Doylewrote:

Do you have any thoughts on the article itself?

Too little, too late.

I've heard Bisharat say a couple times, including at the tail end of this article, that he has been canceled, himself. Does anyone know what he is talking about? He seems like the least offensive guy ever

He got nagged in print by Georgie Abel.

Hell hath no fury like a feminist scorned

I’m wondering how these beautiful Junipers ever survive to be 100 years old if they burn down so easily. They probably couldn’t even survive heavy winds!

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Generally I am anti cancel culture and Joe should not have lost all his sponsor money, maybe a 40% reduction would have been fine? The issue I have with this specific take is that it didn't really mention any more meaningful amends that Joe attempted to make than the Instagram apology.  Bishart tries to frame this as one incident and I recall reading that Joe was dick to two people and it was more than just a single post.  If someone says one bad thing to one person, an apology seems adequate. This seems like Joe said multiple bad things, therefore he needs to make a larger effort to make amends. Partially cancelling Joe seems like it would have been best.

Which 40% should he have lost? Which sponsor(s) should have kept supporting a dude who harassed a prominent female athlete about her weight (it was multiple times) and ignored her when she reached out directly to address it?

Tell me what sponsor is supposed to think Joe Kinder is worth it with that shit.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Generally I am anti cancel culture and Joe should not have lost all his sponsor money, maybe a 40% reduction would have been fine? 

One thing to remember is that there is a typically contract between the company and those they sponsored. While I do not know all the ins and outs of those contacts, there are typically clauses about actions that would bring negative attention to themselves and by association the sponsor that would be grounds for terminating the contract/sponsorship. Such clauses are common across the board, not just in the climbing world. 

Over the years, I have had conversations with multiple companies about some of these incidents. To my knowledge, I know of one person within the greater climbing community, Andy Lewis who did far worse (leading to multiple criminal charges and a conviction) yet retained their sponsors. There are others such as Jonathan Thesenga, who also plead guilty to a Federal change and subsequently lost his job. However, years later he was brought back in to the fold.

Some thoughts on the Bisharat's article, there are multiple factual issues with it. First, tree cutting permits are issued for personal use fuelwood. Second, standing trees can not be cut down, trees must be dead and down. Third permits are for specific areas. Forth permits are not issued for juniper. edit Fifth, the crag in question is in a federal designated wilderness, no permit is possible. As such, a permit was not possible and would not have prevented Kinder from being cited.

Next, sometimes when one sees a route one must think beyond their own ego gratification. Bisharat tries to justify cutting trees in the name of safety which is specious. That is the amount of gardening sometimes required is not justifiable for the resulting route(s).

Finally, Bisharat is incorrect in that "But this was 2013, online mobs were inchoate, still too toothless to inflict much damage." First, issues like Kinder's initial act have happened for far longer, Thesenga's incident happened a decade earlier in 2003. Second in many cases those expressing their displeasure are not part of a mob mentality as Bisharat implies, but those who have a vested interest. Third those involved were not inchoate and toothless. Thesenga lost his job with a few weeks.

As for Kinder's action and losing his sponsorships. Perhaps he should have read the contract better. Further, given what happened regarding the tree cutting incident Kinder might have thought twice about the implications his actions three years latter. Finally, Kinder like many others have willingly put themselves in the public spotlight. With that comes scrutiny - sometimes justifiably, sometimes not (the court of public opinions is harsh, always has been. Social media be damned).

None of this is to say one does not deserve a second chance, Kinder did after his first incident and Thesenga certainly did some personal and community work to redeem themselves. Not sure about Lewis.

At the end of today I am reminded of the old adage: Never do anything you would not want on a billboard next to the interstate. Today the adage is: Never do anything you would not want on the internet - forever.

The one thing I do know, is if you stand by and watch your friend get trashed without attempting to stand up for them, youre not a friend. If Joe was an actual good guy, his friends should have stood by him.

The article is an attempt at redemption when there's no point, considering the damage is done. 

Matthew Jaggerswrote:

The one thing I do know, is if you stand by and watch your friend get trashed without attempting to stand up for them, youre not a friend. If Joe was an actual good guy, his friends should have stood by him.

The article is an attempt at redemption when there's no point, considering the damage is done. 

Are you saying there is point in redemption?  Can you elaborate?  

I think I'm with Kevin Mokracek. 

I'd like to see Joe returned to grace within the climbing community. He messed up, a couple of times, but I feel enough time has passed, the dust has settled and it's time for forgiveness and to look toward the future, one where people are allowed a path forward to redemption.

In fact, I think it would be cool to see a short of Joe and Sasha coming together to bury the hatchet of the past. Joe can apologize to her face, on camera. Perhaps it could be "moderated" by Chris Sharma; because who doesn't love Chris Sharma? And then they can all go on some crazy awesome climbing adventure together. Because in a world of fire and flame, we could use a happy ending, and a bunch of sick climbing.

When they run the credits it can read, “No Trees Were Harmed”® and we can all have a chuckle and feel good about things again. 

Yukon Corneliuswrote:

I've heard Bisharat say a couple times, including at the tail end of this article, that he has been canceled, himself. Does anyone know what he is talking about? He seems like the least offensive guy ever

There are tasteless bits in a lot of his writing, for example, casual trans jokes in https://eveningsends.com/hurt-locker/  -- "Like shemales, less serious injuries can be deceptive." 

Matthew Jaggerswrote:

The one thing I do know, is if you stand by and watch your friend get trashed without attempting to stand up for them, youre not a friend. If Joe was an actual good guy, his friends should have stood by him.

The article is an attempt at redemption when there's no point, considering the damage is done. 

While I understand your point I think you are conflating two ideas. How should Bisharat stood up for Kinder when his actions deserved to be condemned???  Bisharat tries to justify Kinder's actions via a specious safety argument. Further, he wrongly tries to down play it by saying Kinder just needed a wood cutting permit (even with a permit junipers can not be cut, nor are there permits for wilderness). Finally, Bisharat tries to argue the tree would be gone because the recent fire. What I see is that Bisharat does not want to call Kinder out and then blames social media for the result.

If Bisharat was a friend he would have told Kinder he screwed up and he needed to be contrite abut his actions. It is not easy, telling friends they pooch it (especially twice). But it does not seem like Bisharat even did that or even talked to Kinder about it. Otherwise I would have expected him to relate the conversation in his article.

https://www.climbing.com/news/joe-kinder-reflects-on-aftermath-of-controversial-tree-cutting-incident/

I mean not to let a few facts get in the way of a good narrative, but as someone pointed out already, there is no permit that would have enabled him to cut down living trees in the name of route development. Also the argument, or implication it’s all good because the area burned several years later is pretty lame.

Cancel cultural is a little tiresome, but on that note, I am pretty sure if I sent private messages of a harassing nature to a coworker, I’d probably lose my job too, if they ended up public. Actions and words matter, seems more like simple accountability than being “cancelled” to me. 

Companies hire people to market and represent their brand through sponsorships etc, what are they suppose to do when those people are no longer marketable? 

Folks have this misconception that the internet isn't a transparent public forum.  Don't say (or do) anything on the internet (anywhere) you wouldn't be willing to go on live national news and repeat (with your name and email floating on the screen).

Y’all are acting like Kinder didn’t apologize to Sasha for what he did and if he did it wasn’t good enough.  I thought I recalled early on in this whole thing that Kinder did apologize and Sasha accepted it and didn’t wish any ill will towards him.  

Do you guys apply the same standards to your kids or spouse when they F up and are apologetic about?   No forgiveness?   That’s a messed up way to go through life and a sure fire way to ruin a relationship.