Bolts on Wind Ridge, Eldorado Canyon

let's be honest, if this wasn't eldo, 2 bolts would be there already...

curt86irocwrote:

let's be honest, if this wasn't eldo, 2 bolts would be there already...

Bolts or no bolts, people will die climbing. How many people died in CCC/BoCan last year clipping bolts. I almost killed/maimed myself on an autobelay. No matter how safe we make any climb, there will be people that find ways to hurt themselves.
Going back and forth on this thread is useless. ACE should be petitioned about installing fixed pro on third pitch. Let the community decide if there’s need for it.

Pretty soon there will be an App on your phone that follows along with you on the climb, and tells you where and when to put pro in.  You could set your indicator Dings for different reasons as you pass by features.

Russ Keanewrote:

Pretty soon there will be an App on your phone that follows along with you on the climb, and tells you where and when to put pro in.  You could set your indicator Dings for different reasons as you pass by features.

A dystopian vision, but not likely in the near term. GPS is accurate to only 4.9m or about 16 feet. Elevation is even worse, with an accuracy to +/-400 feet.

Fehim Hasecicwrote:

Bolts or no bolts, people will die climbing. How many people died in CCC/BoCan last year clipping bolts. I almost killed/maimed myself on an autobelay. No matter how safe we make any climb, there will be people that find ways to hurt themselves.
Going back and forth on this thread is useless. ACE should be petitioned about installing fixed pro on third pitch. Let the community decide if there’s need for it.

let's not make this a larger philosophical discussion about climbing. let's keep it focused on this climb, this pitch and this belay.

i 100% agree the community should decide on whether to install an anchor or not, so in that vein here is my simple opinion on how the community should objectively be looking at this specific belay: If the AVERAGE 5.7 - 5.8 trad climber would have difficulty building a strong enough anchor and the risk is such that, given the rock available, the anchor would likely fail in a FF2 fall, then bolts should be installed.

note i am a below average 5.8 trad climber, so though i provided the framework, i won't be weighing in...

curt86irocwrote:

let's be honest, if this wasn't eldo, 2 bolts would be there already...

Like in the Splatte or JTree?  Or - lol - how about Pike’s?  In comparable trad areas, they would be at best placed - then chopped - due to the obvious good gear nearby.  Whoever put them in would be talked to.

Isaac Maurowrote:

I think more disclaimers about less obvious and potentially dangerous belays/climbing sections on popular "easy" routes would be a great addition to many route descriptions, especially in Eldo. 

The trouble with this approach is that beginners starting out on those "easy" routes will come to expect warnings and hints whenever it gets a little tricky. Since we can't really write detailed instructions on every tricky situation, what will happen when they jump on something without detailed instructions? They'll likely think: "Oh, there's no warning on this route, so it must be G-rated good-to-go!". Trad climbing is still a game where you really need to bring along your brain and make your own decisions.

Patrikwrote:

The trouble with this approach is that beginners starting out on those "easy" routes will come to expect warnings and hints whenever it gets a little tricky. Since we can't really write detailed instructions on every tricky situation, what will happen when they jump on something without detailed instructions? They'll likely think: "Oh, there's no warning on this route, so it must be G-rated good-to-go!". Trad climbing is still a game where you really need to bring along your brain and make your own decisions.

Agreed, but the reality is that many people now learn how to climb on gear by taking a course and reading some books. Without mentorship to help work through those tricky situations, the risk they assume is much higher than someone with a mentor. Not sure we need to child-proof every risky thing but if there's a known difficult/tricky spot on a popular route, more beta is better.

What would Layton Kor have to say about this? That area can be protected, no bolts needed. Its the way it is in Eldo, stop trying to serve the least common denominator.

Let's stop being around the bush, bolts or no bolts climbing will still be dangerous, people will still make mistakes, and people will still die. Climbing will never be "safe".

With climbing going mainstream there will be more and more people who simply don't have the wherewithal to be safe climbers. 

I think putting an emphasis on how dangerous climbing can be and how important good judgment is will be the only thing that might make a difference. Regardless of mentorship, bolting, and warnings tragic accidents will continue at and accelerating pace, so get used to it.

Bill Wwrote:

...

Spoon feeding people all the info isn't a good way to help them learn. WR and Eldo in general has plenty of that inherent danger that people need to be aware of before they even rack up ...

Wait, isn't that exactly what L Kap is suggesting? If we post info on MP calling out the dangerous sections, people will know about it before they rack up... yet you call that "spoon feeding". Which is it? Should we tell people about it ahead of time, or do you think we should let them discover the danger on the fly?

Andrew Krajnikwrote:

Wait, isn't that exactly what L Kap is suggesting? If we post info on MP calling out the dangerous sections, people will know about it before they rack up... yet you call that "spoon feeding". Which is it? Should we tell people about it ahead of time, or do you think we should let them discover the danger on the fly?

I'm saying that that they should be aware that dangerous situations can occur at anytime and you could never list all of them on MP. If you only list some on MP then people will be conditioned to stay alert only for the listed danger and they won't be allowed the opportunity to develop the intuition required to climb safely. Think about the issues created when people show up the crag with only MP and not the guidebook. They're usually lost.

They can gain this intuition in many ways, reading accident reports, working their way slowly up the grades, finding a mentor but the fact is that many people will never gain the situational awareness required to climb safely because they're just not wired to be climbers.

Ignore Nano. Look at the profile pic, and the account is awfully opinionated for having less than 10 posts and being less than a month old. It's a troll account.

Obviously people learn from both personal experience and getting information from people who have been there, either through mentorship, books, videos, guidebooks, discussion on MP, etc. I am just back from a climbing day and am enjoying the afterglow, but will at some point start a new thread asking the admins for a section on MP that links good threads about a particular route or area to that route or area's page. Accident analysis threads can be part of that. Also, discussions about adding bolts or tyrols, new or rerouted approach trails, access issues, etc. There's a lot of good geographic-specific info in the forum threads that gets lost over time and isn't always easy to search for.

L Kapwrote:

Ignore Nano. Look at the profile pic, and the account is awfully opinionated for having less than 10 posts and being less than a month old. It's a troll account.

Obviously people learn from both personal experience and getting information from people who have been there, either through mentorship, books, videos, guidebooks, discussion on MP, etc. I am just back from a climbing day and am enjoying the afterglow, but will at some point start a new thread asking the admins for a section on MP that links good threads about a particular route or area to that route or area's page. Accident analysis threads can be part of that. Also, discussions about adding bolts or tyrols, new or rerouted approach trails, access issues, etc. There's a lot of good geographic-specific info in the forum threads that gets lost over time and isn't always easy to search for.

Probably Tradiban. It has been very quiet for quite awhile now. Sure sounds like Tradibore.

What will it say in the description? ... "Don't make an anchor where you can't make a good anchor"   I mean, seriously, there are so many inherent requirements for every trad climb you can't possibly document all the things people should know.

Russ Keanewrote:

What will it say in the description? ... "Don't make an anchor where you can't make a good anchor"   I mean, seriously, there are so many inherent requirements for every trad climb you can't possibly document all the things people should know.

Russ, did you learn anything from this thread that would be helpful to you if you climbed Wind Ridge? 

Russ Keanewrote:

What will it say in the description? ... "Don't make an anchor where you can't make a good anchor"   I mean, seriously, there are so many inherent requirements for every trad climb you can't possibly document all the things people should know.

I climbed Wind Ridge a few years ago. From what was posted on MP I gathered the 3rd pitch had chossy rock, mediocre climbing and a time consuming descent. Based on that walking off after the second pitch and going over to the Bastille and climbing Werk Sup which was stellar seemed like a better use of our limited time at Eldo. I'm not denying there is a point where the route beta can get excessive but info like the above was certainly helpful. 

This accident was tragic and upsetting.

Yes, it might happen again someday.

Putting a bolted belay there is an attempt to remove the possibility that an inadequate trad anchor would be chosen at that location. Note that the trad anchor atop P1 failed for another party recently. Also note the possible knock-on effects of rappelling or top-roping the route and you'll see the whack-a-mole nature of this criterion for fixed anchors. We can't bolt our way to zero accidents.

Education is categorically different.  [insert 'teach a man to fish' aphorism - or don't].   No, it isn't a guarantee that future climbers will build appropriate anchors - but pointing out the placements might clue them in to change/improve their decision process for building anchors (which is the whole enchilada for trad climbing, isn't it?). 

Of course there are far too many tricky placements in Eldo to list them all - but it's not too much of a chore to crowdsource a few important ones on the entry level climbs that see the most traffic.

Gregger Manwrote:

This accident was tragic and upsetting.

Yes, it might happen again someday.

Putting a bolted belay there is an attempt to remove the possibility that an inadequate trad anchor would be chosen at that location. Note that the trad anchor atop P1 failed for another party recently. Also note the possible knock-on effects of rappelling or top-roping the route and you'll see the whack-a-mole nature of this criterion for fixed anchors. We can't bolt our way to zero accidents.

Education is categorically different.  [insert 'teach a man to fish' aphorism - or don't].   No, it isn't a guarantee that future climbers will build appropriate anchors - but pointing out the placements might clue them in to change/improve their decision process for building anchors (which is the whole enchilada for trad climbing, isn't it?). 

Of course there are far too many tricky placements in Eldo to list them all - but it's not too much of a chore to crowdsource a few important ones on the entry level climbs that see the most traffic.

Thanks Greg -- exactly my sentiment!

Eldo just ain't that damn dangerous in the grand scheme of things. You guys that think it is really need to get out more. There are many similar areas (actually even more so) in the U.S. alone. If we continue to sanitize these great traditional training grounds (i.e. low committing crags) then aren't we just kicking the can on down the road at the risk of incurring more of these of the types of incidents in the bigger, more remote, ranges?

I say this as both a climber and rescuer (medic) of many decades. 

Andrew Doumont wrote:

What I have seen is actually climbing accidents have been on a slow trajectory downward since the 1980s

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/article/150206-mountaineering-accidents-american-alpine-club-climbing

Obviously this data ends in 2013 and is not scientific or anything, but do you have anything except personal anecdotes to show more accidents are happening? Maybe I’m interpreting it wrong?

Lots of problems with that study, most importantly they're talking about percentages, the number of rock climbers has risen dramatically suppressing the percentage of accidents in relation to the total number of climbers. 

And let’s not forget that many high-profile, expert climbers have been involved in accidents. It’s not just noobs.

Sure, but it's not significant, the pros are "living on the edge" while noobs are living just slightly off the couch.

There are literally climbing documentaries where professional climbers lament how risk-averse new climbers are

The risk adverse noobs are the most dangerous ones because they are lulled into a false sense of security.