Bolts on Wind Ridge, Eldorado Canyon

Greg, nice series of images. Can one place gear before making moves off the ledge to avoid a factor 2 fall? It might not help if you hit the ledge but would hopefully keep one from pulling the team off.

Yes. The #2 Camalot and the #0.5 Camalot can be placed without getting into the hueco. Granted, I’m tall- but these pieces aren’t terribly far up.

Gregger Manwrote:

Yes. The #2 Camalot and the #0.5 Camalot can be placed without getting into the hueco. Granted, I’m tall- but these pieces aren’t terribly far up.

No. I'm 5'7" and had to get into the hueco to place a solid piece. I'm taller than about 90% of American women. 

You said you are 6'4", which is taller than 98-99% of the American population.

Free Spiritwrote:

How come I had to pay thousands of dollars over the years in guiding skills and anchor education, and spent dozens upon dozens of hours in classes to learn how to build a SERENE anchor and safely retreat - but these gumbos want two- or three-bolt rappel anchors all the way down the face?

What happened to supporting our guiding community? How are guides supposed to make money teaching skills?

I mean, I absolutely have the skills and I think it should have bolts.

I'll try to go up this weekend and look at all the anchor placements suggested, but my recollection is that all of them are more than slightly problematic. Slinging the boulder is not a common thing to do in Eldo, the boulder itself is not confidence inspiring, and the recent accident happened with this anchor. The 3-piece anchor example inside the hueco is exactly where the climber needs to be climbing through the crux and also cannot be built off the ledge by a short-to-average-height climber. The anchor to the right of the hueco is out of line with the climb and there is no good option for pre-placing a directional to protect the crux (and prevent a factor 2 fall) if you're short-to-average height. The anchor below the ledge (below the boulder) is probably the best option, but I believe is a hanging belay, and how many people will stop to build a hanging belay when there's a GIANT LEDGE right above you and all the beta says go to the ledge? I think when I've done this pitch in the past, I built an anchor kind of far back on the ledge where it meets the wall, but I'm not sure the rock quality was great.

There are probably a lot of climbers who built crappy anchors in this location and were just lucky they didn't fall off the ledge from the crux. The recent, tragic accident had all the holes lined up: subpar anchor, neither leader nor belayer noticed the anchor was slipping off the boulder, leader didn't place gear from the strenuous position inside the hueco, leader fell at the crux, direction of fall was off the ledge, belayer was not able to spot the fall back onto the ledge.

"how many people will stop to build a hanging belay when there's a GIANT LEDGE right above you and all the beta says go to the ledge?"

People should build their anchors where they are able to find good enough pro.   If a ledge sucks balls, then find something else.   There's no reason why the belay has to be at one particular spot.   This whole conversation is ridiculous, because the fact of the matter is, climbers have to take matters into their own hands and get up and down safely.  There are no requirements for bolts, for accurate beta, for help, nothing.  There are no guarantees.  When did this become a theme park?  Are we going to sue God for not making the rock better?    

So which one of you yapping bolt warriors is going to open an application on aceeldo.org?

There are 3 open applications now - fewer votes each over 2 months than posts here - lol.

I have been giving this accident even more thought since i just learned that I knew the deceased.  I met him recently at a gym.  He was super friendly, really stoked on climbing, really psyched on Eldo.  We talked about getting out together sometime soon.  I'm sad I'll never get to partner up with him.  I'm sure he is really missed by his close friends and family.

This discussion has gone so far of the mark, we need to get it back on track, shed some light on what it is really like to be up there, talk about the grade and so much more, especially for those that are not familiar with the route. 

The ledge:

The start of p3 begins from a fairly large ledge, 50 feet long or more, perhaps 10 feet deep in places including near the start of p3 of WR.  On any given day, if you are belaying p3 of WR a party or two from nearby climbs may walk right past you to the descent trail UNROPED.  Sure, one still needs to be careful.  But, it is pretty common to see climbers coming from Calypso 5.6, Tagger 10b/c, Tigger 5.5, and a few other routes to the south, walk right on by UNROPED.   This ledge is fairly comfortable by climbing standards.  

P3 start:

Yard on the large juggie overhanging flake.  If you are "small or skinny", you can slide inside behind the flake like a chimney.  At this point, you are stuck inside, virtually impossible to fall out.  You can place at least 2 solid pieces in the crack to your right.  If you are "not so small or skinny (me)", getting inside is not possible.  I yard on the steep overhanging flake until I can drop my leg over the top of it, sort of a knee bar, but more like a foot bar.  At this point I'm only perhaps 8 feet above the ledge.  Then, I can  go hands free, shake out and place at least 2 solid pieces in the crack up and right.  Now comes the crux.  Stand up on the flake, place another piece if necessary, find some very small holds for a 5.6, make a few moves including a foot placement on a small hold, stand up, find some jugs, pull over onto the lower angle terrain above.  Easy to have 3 pieces of gear before the trickiest moves.

I have done p3 without any anchor at all many times based on the above info and knowing that I or my partner will get solid gear before the crux.  This is a critical part of the safety system keeping the leader and belayer attached to the wall.  It feels quite reasonable knowing the security of the first few moves and the very solid placements only 8-10 feet above the ledge before the crux and the size of the ledge the belayer is standing on.  It feels like you are on the ground giving the leader a spot until he/she gets the bomber gear in.  A belay anchor is not really the governing factor for safety here.  

I suspect the party in the recent accident felt slinging the flake was adequate for a few 5.6 moves above a large ledge.  This may be where the danger begins.  I feel the flake is suspicious at best.  It will break off sometime in the future.  Relying on it alone is a bad idea.  The trickiest moves are just above the flake.  Good gear is paramount at this point and it is available. 

My best guess as to what happened was the belayer was spotting the leader, the leader fell, the sling on the flake fell off, the spotter got knocked off the ledge, and took the leader with him or the the sling fell off and the leader landed awkwardly on the ledge and shot off, taking the belayer with him.  Either way, one piece of mediocre gear was their only attachment to the rock.  Zero redundancy,  Zero chance for error.  

Perhaps we should change the rating of this weird, awkward, overhanging pitch to 5.7 or 5.8.  It certainly does not fell like a 5.6 to me.   What do the rest of you think that have climbed it.  I thought Steve Levin's decision (Eldo guide book author) to upgrade the Bastille crack (lots of accidents) from 5.7 to 5.8- was a subtle but worthy change.  If this pitch is rated 5.7 or 8-, people climbing the 5.5's and 5.6's below may not attempt this pitch.

L Kapwrote:

No. I'm 5'7" and had to get into the hueco to place a solid piece. I'm taller than about 90% of American women.

You said you are 6'4", which is taller than 98-99% of the American population.

Yes, I have a freakishly long reach (6'9" wingspan). The upper nut is out of reach for just about everybody, and the #0.5 would require a pull-up-&-lock-off at the least. 

But not the #2- I would bet that the woman in this photo placed the #2 before making the move, and she does not look very tall. 

That piece is very strong and it is located below the lowest chalked-up hand hold.

Thank You Gregger Man for taking the time to take and post up your excellent images. And thanks to Greg D for careful analysis.

I can see how someone, having climbed Wind Ridge up to there and finding it straightforward, would assume that the next pitch is going to be more of the same--and consequently not spending much time hunting for the best belay options. The biggest single mistake (baffling, to me) was to fail to place a piece in the excellent crack behind the heuco before leaving the heuco. But. as with many accidents, this one resulted from a series of regrettable decisions.

I agree that the leaving-the-heuco move is harder than 5.6. I've always thought that. Possibly a stiffer rating here may have provoked a more careful search for belay options and a more conservative approach while leading that pitch, who knows?
 

One strong argument for not bolting an anchor here is that some folks might mistakenly think it's a rap anchor and descend down into trouble. That could be mitigated by putting signage on it, similar to the rappel signage on the descent of the 3rd flatiron, or the signage on the highline anchor bolts on top of Creekside.

The rating for Wind Ridge on MP is already 5.7. I definitely agree with having a better description of the 3rd pitch that notes the options for a solid belay anchor for ascending and warns leaders not treat the ledge like safe ground. I'd be in favor of adding notes to all climbs on MP to mention serious accidents or fatalities that occur on the route, with a brief description of mistakes to avoid. How many climbers hop on Bastille Crack or Calypso without knowing the danger spots? Maybe put it in a collapsible section that folks can skip if they find that information disturbing, but it's there for anyone wanting to learn.

Steve, I think some folks don't place gear from the hueco because being in the hueco can be extremely awkward and strenuous, depending on your body type and the position you got yourself into. If you didn't accurately anticipate the placement, the right-size piece on your rack might be pinned by your body out of reach. And if you haven't done the climb before, you might not realize that the next moves out of the hueco are so exposed and delicate. It's an easy place to get in a bad position. 

L Kapwrote:

One strong argument for not bolting an anchor here is that some folks might mistakenly think it's a rap anchor and descend down into trouble. That could be mitigated by putting signage on it, similar to the rappel signage on the descent of the 3rd flatiron, or the signage on the highline anchor bolts on top of Creekside.

Just don't put rap rings or chains on it.

The rating for Wind Ridge on MP is already 5.7. I definitely agree with having a better description of the 3rd pitch that notes the options for a solid belay anchor for ascending and warns leaders not treat the ledge like safe ground. I'd be in favor of adding notes to all climbs on MP to mention serious accidents or fatalities that occur on the route, with a brief description of mistakes to avoid. How many climbers hop on Bastille Crack or Calypso without knowing the danger spots? Maybe put it in a collapsible section that folks can skip if they find that information disturbing, but it's there for anyone wanting to learn.

Spoon feeding people all the info isn't a good way to help them learn. WR and Eldo in general has plenty of that inherent danger that people need to be aware of before they even rack up for their first trad climb. Dumbing it down will just lead to more accidents.

L Kapwrote:

One strong argument for not bolting an anchor here is that some folks might mistakenly think it's a rap anchor and descend down into trouble. That could be mitigated by putting signage on it, similar to the rappel signage on the descent of the 3rd flatiron, or the signage on the highline anchor bolts on top of Creekside.

The rating for Wind Ridge on MP is already 5.7. I definitely agree with having a better description of the 3rd pitch that notes the options for a solid belay anchor for ascending and warns leaders not treat the ledge like safe ground. I'd be in favor of adding notes to all climbs on MP to mention serious accidents or fatalities that occur on the route, with a brief description of mistakes to avoid. How many climbers hop on Bastille Crack or Calypso without knowing the danger spots? Maybe put it in a collapsible section that folks can skip if they find that information disturbing, but it's there for anyone wanting to learn.

Steve, I think some folks don't place gear from the hueco because being in the hueco can be extremely awkward and strenuous, depending on your body type and the position you got yourself into. If you didn't accurately anticipate the placement, the right-size piece on your rack might be pinned by your body out of reach. And if you haven't done the climb before, you might not realize that the next moves out of the hueco are so exposed and delicate. It's an easy place to get in a bad position. 

There is bomber gear right before, during and after the crux flake move. If this is at the leader’s limit and they are unable to properly protect this move they should consider walking off and climbing something within their ability. For the record I thought this crux move to be as hard as any single move on the bastille crack so I would support an updated rating around 5.8. 

Bill Wwrote:

Just don't put rap rings or chains on it.

That won't stop some folks.

Spoon feeding people all the info isn't a good way to help them learn. WR and Eldo in general has plenty of that inherent danger that people need to be aware of before they even rack up for their first trad climb. Dumbing it down will just lead to more accidents.

For gym climbers transitioning to the outdoors, how are they going to learn about the inherent danger? There aren't enough mentors to go around. Sharing current info and route details is one of the most useful features of MP.  

A V wrote:

Good on Gregger for at least pointing out the creative anchoring options to anybody who is climbing this at their technical/experience limit. 

Basically - this accident will probably happen again at some point (according to this thread it has already happened twice at this location) 

The thing is, this info will get lost in this thread and the people who need it in the future won't get it.  I'm in favor of adding more info to the route description itself, and adding the photos to the route photos. The photos will need some explanation. Nobody will stop to build an anchor below the walk-off ledge unless they have beta from someone who has been there. 

L Kapwrote:

The rating for Wind Ridge on MP is already 5.7. 

IIRC, pitch 3 is 5.6 in the guide book.  I’ll take a look when I’m home.  

A V wrote:

The people here are more interested in pretending as if they were never the ones making critical mistakes and getting away with them - more interested in passing judgement on those who didn’t get away with their mistakes - and less interested in actually changing anything or teaching anybody (because that actually takes effort). Good on Gregger for at least pointing out the creative anchoring options to anybody who is climbing this at their technical/experience limit. 

Basically - this accident will probably happen again at some point (according to this thread it has already happened twice at this location) 

There have been a couple references to this having happened previously on this route.  Possibly, but the only similar accident on the Wind Ridge that I can recall was in 2019, when a guy fell from the top of the first pitch. 

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/117615210/eldo-accident-81719

Like the ledge below the hueco, the P1 belay has a lot of very solid anchor options, but can require some creative gear.

Greg Dwrote:

IIRC, pitch 3 is 5.6 in the guide book.  I’ll take a look when I’m home.  

It is 5.6 in the new third edition. A rating I agree with, tbh. 

This climb is considerably easier than Bastille Crack or Rewritten, the benchmark 5.7s for the canyon.

Although I guess Bastille crack got upgraded to .8… I enjoy the sandbagged ratings in Eldo but there’s no doubt the disconnect with gym ratings causes issues.

People climbing multi-pitch should not need "beta" from the internet or a guidebook about building anchors.   You don't build a crappy one; you simply don't.   Belay stations can be anywhere.  If you get to the ledge and it's garbage, don't stop there.

I think more disclaimers about less obvious and potentially dangerous belays/climbing sections on popular "easy" routes would be a great addition to many route descriptions, especially in Eldo. Having information easily available in route descriptions could potentially stop a new leader from getting in over their heads because they think 5.7 climbing over a huge ledge is not something to be super worried about. My first time climbing Wind Ridge I was a pretty new trad leader. I remember reading through the comments on the route and seeing someone mention building the belay below the ledge, which I ended up doing after not liking the ledge belay situation very much. Had I not read the comments and not been a generally cautious climber, I very well could have gotten tunnel vision'd on building an inadequate anchor on the ledge assuming that the 5.7 moves above would be no problem. On my repeats with more experience I have always gone to the ledge and been able to build a good anchor and get in a bomber piece before fully commiting to the moves.

I can definitely see how someone might approach this climb as a good beginner multipitch and end up in a dangerous situation with an anchor/protection system that is not adequate for protecting the leader on pitch 3. Maybe if they remember the description mentioning to be weary of pitch 3, they will take some extra time to prepare the anchor for a leader fall and make sure they get a jesus piece in below the hueco before they commit, or god forbid, just walk off instead of doing pitch 3 because the climbing isn't even that good. 

I am neutral on adding a bolted belay here, but it seems to me providing better information about potential dangers and past accidents is something that would be just as useful for preventing future accidents. With how fast climbing is growing, its hard to find mentorship, so beginners get left to figure it out themselves. It is important for information to be EASILY available for new climbers. There is a wealth of knowledge in books, youtube, and this forum, but route descriptions on MP are the one place every new climber in america is going to reference when they are deciding where they want to climb. Maybe we are missing some opportunities to inform gung ho new climbers of some dangers they might not be aware of. And sure people should be aware of these things before they ever rack up, but that is not going to stop overconfident new climbers from doing it anyway, so why not shove some extra info/warnings in their face that they might be able to use to make a safer, more informed decision while they are on the sharp end.