Bolts on Wind Ridge, Eldorado Canyon

CDub-

If your spidey-sense is tingling when you look at that boulder, I won't try to convince you that it is solidly planted there. It's a judgement call, and your caution may keep you safer than others. Still, if I were to predict how this particular rock will eventually slide off the ledge I would select 'rain storm/erosion' from the drop down menu instead of anything involving the push or pull of a human.

The Fisher Towers give me the heebie-jeebies if that helps define where the edge of my comfort zone lies. I climbed 'Standing Rock' in 2015 and that was as near to the Fishers as I would like to get (Sorry, Crusher).

There never will be consensus here: too many who have never been on the route; too many who do not know a good gear/natural anchor from a bad one; too many who think they should  be able to climb anything tagged as 5.x; too many who want bolts wherever a climb is demonstrably dangerous; too many not willing to sometimes just back off.

Meanwhile, let’s keep climbs as varied as the fingerprints right now on this earth.  Making a route fit the style of Jack takes something away from Jill.

"most people in the community would rather see people die than 'dumb down the route' [with bolts]"

 This is so unfair to those who are offering their opinion.  I know this comment has been shot down but I'd like to re-iterate that it's extremely irresponsible of you to accuse people of wanting others to die.   If you're out on a cliff rock climbing, and you need bolts to keep yourself safe, you have NO business being out there.  Plain and simple to the person who made this comment.  Bolts are 100% not to be treated as an expectation or a necessity.  

BITD bolts were looked at with caution as most were small, hand placed by who knows, and often with hardware grade gear. I trusted my own placements more.

What if you split the difference and put one bolt near the best gear placements/belay position to coax new leaders to good choices?

Ackley The Improved wrote:

BITD bolts were looked at with caution as most were small, hand placed by who knows, and often with hardware grade gear. I trusted my own placements more.

What if you split the difference and put one bolt near the best gear placements/belay position to coax new leaders to good choices?

Or just bolt signs with big arrows to the completely obvious gear placements....

Uncertainty causes anxiety. The uncertain outcome is why some of us climb.

Certainty is mostly an illusion in daily life.

CDub wrote:

I just want to point out that accidents have happened when anchors were built utilizing a large, detached boulder, resting on a sloping ledge, and catastrophic anchor failure occurred when the boulder departed the ledge without warning.

Granted, I haven't climbed WR for the last few years, but the boulder in question is pretty fricken solid. You can't rock it or anything. And what kind of forces do you expect to be putting on it anyway??? Most climbers use it to anchor for bringing up the second only, then either walk off or build a new anchor for the third pitch. So the most force you could exert is very low. I've always just belayed off my waist, and tethered myself to the rock using the rope. My wife slumped onto the rope and there is enough friction that I didn't even weight the anchor, effectively giving her a "body belay". 

Didn't this same exact accident happen last summer (or possibly the summer before) but both climbers survived. I can't remember the details and surprised I haven't seen it mentioned on any of these threads. 

I think they were in the same spot but the follower fell climbing the 2nd pitch and ripped the leader off the poorly built anchor.

Can we see some photos of goody style hex placements there too please!

A V wrote:

Lol the level of gate keeping here is incredible. The route looks like choss (we PNWers know a thing or two about choss). A bolted anchor isn't going to make the world end - and this is a beginner level route, so it's inevitable that a beginner is going to do something super super sketchy. Honestly probably happens every weekend, and just recently things finally went South. Yes, if you know what you're doing you will be fine (this is established, we get it, you're a super strong and experienced climber man - you are so cool and we all respect you so much for your internet comments about how people that die via their anchor failing did so because they suck). I'd get it if this was a belay on a route that was actually difficult, but this route is easy and will attract people who will probably build sketchy ass anchors.

People who don't know how to build anchors build sketchy anchors, therefore any route that is 'easy' and will attract new climbers should have bolted anchors?  Easy routes also attract beginners who may place shitty gear, better to put bolts next to all the placements so they have a safe backup.  

The question is... does the community want to keep scraping the mangled gumby corpses off of the ground over this particularly forgettable pitch and belay? I would get the outcry if the route is special. But its not... 

This is not a frequent occurrence.  And based on your comments, you've never been on the route which is different than forgetting it.  It's a fun route, a Layton Kor route from the 50's and worthy of the 3 stars it gets on MP.

Side note - there is no shortage of old crusties complaining about gumbies flooding their local crag, but are generally unwilling to be mentors (leading to the current mentor shortage and the general increase in sketchy shit transpiring)

Not sure what the new climber 'situation' is in the PNW, but if every old crusty climber in the front range mentored 10 people who didn't know what they were doing, it still wouldn't be enough.  An activity that requires a ton of knowledge to do safely (and really is never safe) is experiencing huge growth in popularity, no amount of mentoring is going to stop the inevitable increase in accidents.  Is your argument that it makes you a bad person, an old crusty climber, or a 'gatekeeper' for not thinking the solution is going bolt crazy in classic trad areas?

A V wrote:

Lol the level of gate keeping here is incredible. The route looks like choss (we PNWers know a thing or two about choss). A bolted anchor isn't going to make the world end - and this is a beginner level route, so it's inevitable that a beginner is going to do something super super sketchy. Honestly probably happens every weekend, and just recently things finally went South. Yes, if you know what you're doing you will be fine (this is established, we get it, you're a super strong and experienced climber man - you are so cool and we all respect you so much for your internet comments about how people that die via their anchor failing did so because they suck). I'd get it if this was a belay on a route that was actually difficult, but this route is easy and will attract people who will probably build sketchy ass anchors.

The question is... does the community want to keep scraping the mangled gumby corpses off of the ground over this particularly forgettable pitch and belay? I would get the outcry if the route is special. But its not... 

Side note - there is no shortage of old crusties complaining about gumbies flooding their local crag, but are generally unwilling to be mentors (leading to the current mentor shortage and the general increase in sketchy shit transpiring)

You obviously have never climbed this route and it seems like you have no idea what you are talking about. 

A V wrote:

Is bolting a belay that killed a climber and seriously injured his partner, going “bolt-crazy?”

You're totally missing the point - this isn't a belay where there are no safe options for anchors - what happened was terrible, and the result of human error.  You can't remove human error from climbing.  If someone put the wrong size cam in a crack and decked - would you put a bolt there?

A V wrote:

Is bolting a belay that killed a climber and seriously injured his partner, going “bolt-crazy?”

The belay didn't kill anyone. They killed themselves, via either incompetence or taking a calculated risk and drawing the short straw. Hundreds of parties climb this route every year without incident.

CDubwrote:

Keeping it shitty for old times' sake is just incredibly dumb, IMO. I consider anchor bolts to be a completely different discussion than retro-bolting protection bolts on a pitch - though people seem to treat it as identical, for some reason. Not a rap anchor, just anchor bolts. I'm 100% in favor of adding a bolted anchor.

A V wrote:

Man I really prodded the wasp nest of oversized Colorado egos here.

Should be fun reading these comments.

Retrobolting belays != retro bolting routes 

Yeah how dare someone who climbs in the area in question disagree with you, a person who it seems never climbed in Eldo and has no context on the history or character of the climbing, our egos must be out of control!

A V wrote:

Is bolting a belay that killed a climber and seriously injured his partner, going “bolt-crazy?”

I, like you, have never climbed the route. And despite being a "crusty trad" (started climbing in the Gunks in 1972), bolts, protection or anchor, have never bothered me, then or now. After seeing the photos of the belay in question, there is absolutely no reason to add belay bolts there, on a route that has been climbed 10's of thousands of times with no incident.

How come I had to pay thousands of dollars over the years in guiding skills and anchor education, and spent dozens upon dozens of hours in classes to learn how to build a SERENE anchor and safely retreat - but these gumbos want two- or three-bolt rappel anchors all the way down the face?

What happened to supporting our guiding community? How are guides supposed to make money teaching skills?

A V wrote:

Man I really prodded the wasp nest of oversized Colorado egos here.

Should be fun reading these comments.

Retrobolting belays != retro bolting routes 

Retrobolting is retrobolting. Just say "No".

I kind of feel like putting a bolted belay on that ledge would be like bolting the top of The Tricouni Nail in Custer...if you can't figure out how to get down, you shouldn't be up there. 

 I used Hexes and Stoppers in 80. My partner, who I met at the crags, sewed his own runners using fishing line. He also remember him placing a Crack N Up in a grassy seam on West overhang, All these cam things seem hardly in the spirit of the original ascentionists. What did Jane and Layton use in 1959?