Why are some climbers so against assisted braking belay device?

Don Morris wrote:

It is not about being a 'purist'. It is the style of climbing, efficiency and weight. Weight is a factor when doing high alpine multi-pitch or alpinism. The ease of use and smoothness of an ATC is critical when belaying a lead on a dicey pitch. Transitioning  belay leads is quick and uncomplicated. Rapping is safe, simple, quick and smooth. And when in a mountaineering or big wall multi-pitch environment speed and time are risk factors that need to be considered.

Gonna disagree with you here.  I bring my Mad Rock Lifeguard with me to the alpine (or really just multipitch in general) if I'm using a single.  I always bring two devices anyway.  The ease of belaying a second with an assisted device vs a guide tube is vast IMO.  It's worth the weight penalty for way less arm fatigue.  

It's also nice to have for the odd scenario where maybe you would have to lower your partner (thankfully never had to do this) or at least feed them slack (have used it for this).  That said I readily admit that you have to be more attentive with it especially if there is a lot of friction on the pitch and/or it's a slab as it doesn't lock up as easily as a guide mode ATC.  

Also transitioning from belaying second back to lead belay is just as easy as with an ATC.  I obviously will still carry my ATC but will rarely use it in that scenario.  

Obviously totally different I'm using twin/half ropes.  In that case though I will usually take an ATC and a GiGi and use the GiGi for belaying the second.  

Kyle Tarrywrote:

Maybe I am failing to understand the argument you (and others) are trying to make.  Some people will choose to learn the right way to do something.  Some people won't.  In either case, the data suggests that a Grigri has better outcomes.

Everything else being equal, it does seem likely that belaying with a Grigri is safer.

But, again...

If I have the choice between the average Grigri user who never trained on an ATC/tube/fig-8/etc, and a solid belayer who only uses an ATC, I'll pick the latter every time. 

ubuwrote:

Everything else being equal, it does seem likely that belaying with a Grigri is safer.

But, again...

If I have the choice between the average Grigri user who never trained on an ATC/tube/fig-8/etc, and a solid belayer who only uses an ATC, I'll pick the second every time. 

Curious, why would someone even NEED to know how to belay competently with an ATC? Like post apocalyptic climbing where grigris are like fresh water in waterworld and you can get an ATC for a few bottle caps? I always hear the argument, but it doesn't make sense to me. Toyota technicians in 2021 aren't spending much time learning how to rebuild carburators. If someone doesn't know how to use an ATC well, they might still be pretty good with a grigri. Idk. 

(Disclaimer, I use both equally)

I understand why people feel so passionate about this topic.  The safety and security of the belay is the most critical aspect of the system our lives depend upon.

But can we all acknowledge there has yet to be a single legit study to examine these questions in a rigorous manner?  Anecdotal evidence isn't going to cut it. Or at the very least, it won't change the minds at either end of the divide.

I strongly believe that learning on an ATC is best practice, because the nature of the device forces the belayer to pay attention and not fuck it up.  There's merit there.  And then once that muscle memory is ingrained, I think it's best practice to switch to a device like a Grigri, which adds an additional layer of insurance.  

That being said, my intuition tells me that if Grigris suddenly became mandatory in all gyms and crags throughout the world, belaying accidents would decrease.  

What kind of beer do Germans drink when climbing is a question I want answered. High alcohol content IPAs or Spaten type of yellow beer?

Kyle Elliottwrote:

Curious, why would someone even NEED to know how to belay competently with an ATC? 

I don't think anyone is suggesting there is any such need, but maybe I missed something.

Is it really true that the one device causes better behavior than another? Does a GriGri really produce an inattentive belayer? It's been a truism for as long as I've been climbing that you should learn on an ATC. But that's just a belief. There are enough people coming into the sport now that a proper study could be done. Gyms are moving to exclusive use of ABDs. If you could point to data that says this is, in fact, hurting the development of new climbers, and less safe, then you might have an argument for changing how gyms work, and how new climbers are trained. In my dreams, I can imagine the GriGri as an expert-only device, where you would have to prove competency with an ATC first. Then, you show your GriGri skills. If we work at it, we could get the belay test to be an hour long and really piss off the old guard.

Kyle Elliottwrote:

Curious, why would someone even NEED to know how to belay competently with an ATC? Like post apocalyptic climbing where grigris are like fresh water in waterworld and you can get an ATC for a few bottle caps? I always hear the argument, but it doesn't make sense to me. Toyota technicians in 2021 aren't spending much time learning how to rebuild carburators. If someone doesn't know how to use an ATC well, they might still be pretty good with a grigri. Idk. 

(Disclaimer, I use both equally)

You reach for your Grigri....and it's not on your harness, lol! But your partner has an ATC? It's kinda cumbersome, but an ATC belayer can use a grigri, right out of the gate, if the climber is willing to go slow enough that paying out slack isn't a problem. Going from a grigri to an ATC? The death part, catching? You kinda really want that dialed. 

As others have said, learning with an ATC is a more serious thing. Any thing you do, it is on you. A grigri, it's the device doing that catch, not your brake hand. Yeah, don't let go of the brake strand, yada yada yada, but people also always cite that "belayer drops dead" scenario for the bottom line argument. 

But, see, if you are a new climber? It's mighty good to have respect for how quickly and easily you can fuck this thing up. An ATC will show you that. More subtly, it also will give a better "feel" for the rope, and what's happening. The upper hand and bottom hand, are a major contributor to what's going on. Yeah, watch what's happening....but our hands know before our eyes, much of the time. You get that with a grigri, but not as much, imo. The brake hand just isn't as much a part of that process, as it is with an ATC, that's the point of assisted braking, after all.

I also think it's good for a lead climber to understand how things might be working for the belayer. Different devices, different situations, different techniques, different strategies. Sometimes? The usual game plan might not be sufficient. I once used my grigri by quickly slapping it on the rope as a progress capture device, above my ATC, to just climb up a block up to the first bolt to belay. I joined my climber at that first bolt, and he then proceeded on up with far less potential ugliness if he fell getting to bolt two.

Best, Helen

Kyle Tarrywrote:

The DAV (German Alpine Club) did a study and found that assisted braking devices significantly reduce the rate of life-threatening belay errors.  It is difficult to claim that they "enforce bad habits" in light in data that suggests you are significantly less likely to die or be injured while being belayed by one.

https://www.alpenverein.de/chameleon/public/d4ce5dd2-3456-0e69-f1e9-877eee9b6eaa/Climbing-gym-study-2012-english-Panorama-2-13_24301.pdf

Using an ATC isn't a death sentence.  You can safely belay with an ATC like 99.9% of the time.  I use an ATC regularly.  But you cannot argue with hard data which shows which belay device is safer.

Better way to look at the issue is that assisted braking devices significantly reduce the rate of life-threatening belay errors in part because they are less to prone to failure due to bad belaying habits. Because of that it is possible for belayers to develop bad belaying habits that would other cause life-threatening belay errors with other devices.

Allen Sandersonwrote:

Better way to look at the issue is that assisted braking devices significantly reduce the rate of life-threatening belay errors in part because they are less to prone to failure due to bad belaying habits. Because of that it is possible for belayers to develop bad belaying habits that would other cause life-threatening belay errors with other devices.

After reviewing the study I think the results shown are misleading, the study compares people with a high likelihood of having very different experience durations, and doesn’t mean much. For example, how is distance of belayer from the wall related to the type of device? I assume it’s more related to experience and training, likely gained over time.

Old lady Hwrote:

You reach for your Grigri....and it's not on your harness, lol! But your partner has an ATC?

That's the problem. Never climb with someone who forgets gear and never climb with someone who has an ATC only. 

Jokes aside, the only belay accident I've ever witnessed was my friend who had years of ATC experience but very little grigri experience drop my other friend from 15' up because he panic held the gate open and his brake hand did nothing to prevent the fall. Kind of funny since I figured it would have been the other way around. Everything turned out ok, we took the day off, and we got shit faced at camp.

Surprised you curmudgeons out there haven't mentioned the Revo.

Edit:  I mean, this is a brake assisting device that trains one to have the reflexes needed for an ATC.

But can we all acknowledge there has yet to be a single legit study to examine these questions in a rigorous manner?  Anecdotal evidence isn't going to cut it. 

Good points, thanks. 

Also, you can have a strong, committed preference for one type of device, but you can recognize the usefulness and the good points of the others. These choices don't have to be presented as an absolute either/or.

Bill Lawrywrote:

Surprised you curmudgeons out there haven't mentioned the Revo.

I heard a lot of good things about Revo. There are so many great assisted braking devices beside grigri though. Giga Jul or Alpine Smart cost a fraction of GriGri, and work with double strands

B Uwrote:

I heard a lot of good things about Revo. There are so many great assisted braking devices beside grigri though. Giga Jul or Alpine Smart cost a fraction of GriGri, and work with double strands

Yes - but going down the path arguing for double-strand rap usually devolves into ways for one person (edit: or both) to bring a single-strand device.

And, yeah, Revo isn't the end-all.  I just find it useful in gyms that require a brake assisted device for lead belays.

I started with the waist belay in 1977, caught some lead whippers with that just fine. After a year my buddy bought the Stitch plate and I was like: "What the hell is that?" Made him go back to the waist belay which I trusted. 

Since then I've used every mainstream device ever made from 8's to Cinches to all the various GriGris, the Mega Jul and now the Revo. If you read the instructions and practice, they all work fine. 

Before gyms were invented I used to invite non-climbing friends from work to give the sport a try. This also worked for my 11 year old son.

I'd let them lead belay me on something easy with my Stitch plate. Without the spring, the Stitch is really grabby. The trick is to tape their belay hand to the rope with climbing tape, so they can't let go. I'd show them what a good belay hand looks like, how to feed rope and take up slack.  Then I'd start leading up.  The Stitch would grab solid. 

They'd quickly learn to lift the plate off the biner to pay out rope. I usually took a few 'low to the ground' test falls to make sure they understood the importance of a good belay hand. After a few hours/days they didn't need the tape. 

I do remember one person who graduated from a taped belay hand, then almost dropped her leader. She asked to be demoted back to tape. 

You can drive a car without ABS braking...but ABS is simply better technology.  Assisted belay devices are better technology than plates.  I love them for the gym or half pitch cragging. Revo is my current favorite, GriGri + is also fine. But for multi-pitch, I often don't like the weight and go with a plate for versatility. DMM Pivot is my latest.

Bottom line: there is nothing better than an attentive belayer with a good belay hand, regardless of device.

Mark Websterwrote:

Bottom line: there is nothing better than an attentive belayer with a good belay hand, regardless of device.

+1

Nothing else.

Mark Websterwrote:

You can drive a car without ABS braking...but ABS is simply better technology.  Assisted belay devices are better technology than plates.

So much this. The gri-gri has been available for 30 years. The oldest tube-style device, the sticht plate, has only been around for 21 years longer.

The comparison to anti-lock brakes is misleading: disc brakes were invented quite a bit earlier than ABS. Refusing to us a gri-gri because it's too new and untested is a bit like not trusting disc brakes in cars because they're too new.

There's certainly a good argument that people should know how to use both ABS and strictly manual devices. But their operating principles are far enough apart that being effective with a gri-gri does not require any sort of ability with an ATC, or vice versa.

I have been in the car with people who rarely drove automatic transmissions, as they stomped on the brake to initiate a gear shift. It's not the tool's fault if you don't familiarize yourself with it 

Matt Swrote:

Belaying with a grigri is just an added layer of safety and isn't even difficult. I think it's important to know how to use an ATC or similar devices, but I always prefer an assisted braking device. I'd much rather get short-roped than get decked.

I was at a crag in the Red and a guy climbing near us got dropped taking a whip due to a belayer error with an ATC. It would likely not have happened if she would have been using an assisted braking device. He was brought out on a spine-board and everyone thought he was paralyzed. I have no idea the level of experience the belayer had, but at the end of the day, if she would have been using a device like a Grigri, I truly think the accident could have been avoided. 

Aside from belayer error, there are also just things that can happen. Belayer gets struck by a rock? Has an allergic reaction to a bee sting? A siezure? The list goes on. 

While it’s absolutely true that a gri gri is objectively “safer” I’ve seen more accidents from people using gri gris than any other belay device, I also see people with gri gris take their hands off the brake rope and do other bad habits all the time, while I almost never see it with people using ATCs. I think what one of the guys above said puts it best. I’d rather be belayed by someone who learned on an ATC than someone who learned on a gri gri. However, I’d like them to preferably be using an auto locking device. Also, I’ve got to wonder if all these ATC injuries are largely from the bad habits people learned on gri gris. I just can’t imagine taking my hand off the rope in any circumstance short of being knocked out. I have a buddy who broke his leg in a gnarly catch, but kept his hand on the damn brake because that’s just what you do if you learned on an ATC. With all that said, I use an auto locking device myself, and just feel like they generally make for a nicer day out.

The answer is that everyone just make a decision based on their own risk tolerance. Use whatever those with whom you climb are comfortable using.

It's also partly on the climber's side to choose not to climb if they aren't comfortable being belayed on a tube. It's also a dick move to pressure them into climbing anyways, because now one or both of you may not be climbing that day.

It's an insignificant weight added and if feeding slack is difficult for you with something like a gri gri then you are doing something extremely wrong.

Learn the different devices, it's not difficult, and use whatever those you climb with are most comfortable.