SF Bay Area - Bad Bolts

Preeti Pwrote:

Perhaps, but the rope will saw into the sandstone as its pulled (rope drag).  

I'm not sure why the anchors were set back.  Stronger in sandstone?

if the anchor is below the edge, there should be no damage to the sandstone when the rope is pulled.

generally (most situations that i can think of at castle rock), anchors are set above the edge to facilitate easier access for TR and/or installation.  sometimes rock quality/configuration or other factors play a role also.  many times it is not best practice, especially from the standpoint of erosion in sandstone.

the anchors the bacc has been using (to replace old hardware), 8mm  ss,long, twist bolt glue-ins, are plenty strong.

old5tenwrote:

if the anchor is below the edge, there should be no damage to the sandstone when the rope is pulled.

generally (most situations that i can think of at castle rock), anchors are set above the edge to facilitate easier access for TR and/or installation.  sometimes rock quality/configuration or other factors play a role also.  many times it is not best practice, especially from the standpoint of erosion in sandstone.

the anchors the bacc has been using (to replace old hardware), 8mm  ss,long, twist bolt glue-ins, are plenty strong.

Yes, I would much prefer the anchor below the edge.  For top ropers, if the anchor is hard to access, then use another anchor (natural or bolted) to protect yourself to access the below the edge anchor.  

For the route mentioned, I remember some kind of little overhang, so below the edge may be problematic.  

If anyone is knowledgeable of glue in bolts, they may want to check out the new routes at Lexington Rock. The glue appears to have dribbled out of the hole to some extent on a couple bolts. Looks like one anchor bolt may have an air bubble? Hard to say. I don't know how much this would affect the safety of the anchor. I do vaguely recall an anchor in JTree that had a glue in pull out in the past 5 years or so due to improper installation. 

Tony Lobaywrote:

If anyone is knowledgeable of glue in bolts, they may want to check out the new routes at Lexington Rock. The glue appears to have dribbled out of the hole to some extent on a couple bolts. Looks like one anchor bolt may have an air bubble? Hard to say. I don't know how much this would affect the safety of the anchor. I do vaguely recall an anchor in JTree that had a glue in pull out in the past 5 years or so due to improper installation. 

any idea who placed the bolts and/or what bolts they are?

No idea who placed them. Glue in eye bolts. The epoxy is green. 

They look like 6mm twist bolts with this glue to me.

https://www.fastenersplus.com/products/strong-tie-at-xp30-30-oz-fast-curing-anchoring-adhesive-pkg-1

We ran out of hardware. Still not really a good explanation, I greatly apologize for that. I will get the bolt placed one it dries out a little more. Also planning on getting dismal animal rebolted. Hopefully won't forget anymore holes ;)

Cooper Houstonwrote:

We ran out of hardware. Still not really a good explanation, I greatly apologize for that. I will get the bolt placed one it dries out a little more. Also planning on getting dismal animal rebolted. Hopefully won't forget anymore holes ;)

hmmmm... are you sure you should be doing this job?

I was at Lyme Disease rock this past Saturday and noticed a number of old button heads that are in pretty bad shape. The first bolt on "Unlucky in Love" seems to have been spinning since 2016. This crag is pretty small and infrequently travelled, but it is a nice spot to go with the pup and do some laps. I was curious about the process for rebolting. I would love to be involved but don't want to step on toes or do anything out of line. Is an email to BACC a good place to start?

Nodin deSaillanwrote:

I was at Lyme Disease rock this past Saturday and noticed a number of old button heads that are in pretty bad shape. The first bolt on "Unlucky in Love" seems to have been spinning since 2016. This crag is pretty small and infrequently travelled, but it is a nice spot to go with the pup and do some laps. I was curious about the process for rebolting. I would love to be involved but don't want to step on toes or do anything out of line. Is an email to BACC a good place to start?

probably, but i'm not sure who is actively rebolting for them now.  haven't seen any 'fart' communication in a long time, which makes me believe that a lot of the original dynamics/personnel has changed... 

Thanks, old5ten. I will reach out to them. 

Nodin deSaillanwrote:

I was at Lyme Disease rock this past Saturday and noticed a number of old button heads that are in pretty bad shape. The first bolt on "Unlucky in Love" seems to have been spinning since 2016. This crag is pretty small and infrequently travelled, but it is a nice spot to go with the pup and do some laps. I was curious about the process for rebolting. I would love to be involved but don't want to step on toes or do anything out of line. Is an email to BACC a good place to start?

its really hard to get those button heads out of the rock, it requires cutting the head off of the button head ( usually with a dye grinder) and removing the hangar. once you get the hangar off you can drill a similar sized pilot hole next to the shaft of the bolt and knock them loose, this is how i removed them at castle in the past. the issue with this is now you have a massive, ugly hole that can only be filled by a glue in. The BACC doesn't really do anything about the button heads, a prime example of this is Shady and Platypus. the two big overhangs at shady (10-, and 11- )where left as is because they are button heads. most of the anchors at Platypus have a button head well within a safe buffer of the bolts. (the bolts they used are 8in wave bolts, meaning that the bolts should have aprox. 6 to 8 inches square, of space around them.)

Don't want to sound like a negative nancy but the button heads are there to stay, and its not likely that the BACC will do anything about them. especially considering the fact that they wont even consider doing any work to a park unless they get the proper permits. in this case from Santa Clara county parks. 

we did all of the rebolting at indian sans permit and didn't run into that much trouble. but the time that this would take and the high potential to ruin the rock is why this is such a daunting task. and also why seeking out the help from ASCA and the BACC is really important for something like this. 

if it makes you feel any better the button heads are 3/8th X 5in they are reallllyyy in there and i would be amazed if you pulled even the sketchiest one out with a leader fall. 

if this ends up getting off the ground i would love to help finish the job over there! happy climbing 

Cooper Houstonwrote:

its really hard to get those button heads out of the rock, it requires cutting the head off of the button head ( usually with a dye grinder) and removing the hangar. once you get the hangar off you can drill a similar sized pilot hole next to the shaft of the bolt and knock them loose, this is how i removed them at castle in the past. the issue with this is now you have a massive, ugly hole that can only be filled by a glue in. The BACC doesn't really do anything about the button heads, a prime example of this is Shady and Platypus. the two big overhangs at shady (10-, and 11- )where left as is because they are button heads. most of the anchors at Platypus have a button head well within a safe buffer of the bolts. (the bolts they used are 8in wave bolts, meaning that the bolts should have aprox. 6 to 8 inches square, of space around them.)

Don't want to sound like a negative nancy but the button heads are there to stay, and its not likely that the BACC will do anything about them. especially considering the fact that they wont even consider doing any work to a park unless they get the proper permits. in this case from Santa Clara county parks. 

we did all of the rebolting at indian sans permit and didn't run into that much trouble. but the time that this would take and the high potential to ruin the rock is why this is such a daunting task. and also why seeking out the help from ASCA and the BACC is really important for something like this. 

if it makes you feel any better the button heads are 3/8th X 5in they are reallllyyy in there and i would be amazed if you pulled even the sketchiest one out with a leader fall. 

if this ends up getting off the ground i would love to help finish the job over there! happy climbing 

On all the BACC Castle Rock rebolting missions I've been on (Cal Ridge and Castle Rock Falls) we removed every buttonhead we replaced. It's true that many of them were/are incredibly bomber, but several were of the smaller variety and not glued in. Some of those popped easily out with a tap from the tuning fork and a gentle tug! As far as the BACC not doing work without permission, that's a good thing. It took over 20 years of communication and collaboration with the park to earn that permission. Doing work without permission jeopardizes access and all we've worked for.

I'm down to help out removing old buttonheads if you want to meet up sometime.

Jim Thornburgwrote:

On all the BACC Castle Rock rebolting missions I've been on (Cal Ridge and Castle Rock Falls) we removed every buttonhead we replaced. It's true that many of them were/are incredibly bomber, but several were of the smaller variety and not glued in. Some of those popped easily out with a tap from the tuning fork and a gentle tug! As far as the BACC not doing work without permission, that's a good thing. It took over 20 years of communication and collaboration with the park to earn that permission. Doing work without permission jeopardizes access and all we've worked for.

I'm down to help out removing old buttonheads if you want to meet up sometime.

thanks jimi, that bacc bashing was a bit odd.  the only thing i remember walking away from in the 3 or 4 rebolting missions i participated in down there was the threaded stuff up high on the falls...

old5tenwrote:

thanks jimi, that bacc bashing was a bit odd.  the only thing i remember walking away from in the 3 or 4 rebolting missions i participated in down there was the threaded stuff up high on the falls...

Do a quick search on MP for Cooper Houston and the antagonistic attitude will make much more sense.  

Jim Thornburgwrote:

As far as the BACC not doing work without permission, that's a good thing. It took over 20 years of communication and collaboration with the park to earn that permission. Doing work without permission jeopardizes access and all we've worked for.

Well that got interpreted strangely. 

Not trying to bash the BACC here, not sure why everyone seems to feel that way, although I do stand by my statements about the bolts at platypus and shady. 

The area in question is at lyme disease rock in Santa Clara county park, as far as i know the BACC does not have a permit for that park which is why I said it was unlikely that they would be able to do anything about it. 

I've talked to multiple people who have reached out to the BACC in the past trying to get rebolting done at Indian rock. In the end none of it came to fruition, and that's why Shawn and I did the rebolting at Indian. 

in hindsight i realized that that was not the right way to go about things and this is something that I reflected in my last post stating:

 "we did all of the rebolting at indian sans permit and didn't run into that much trouble. but the time that this would take and the high potential to ruin the rock is why this is such a daunting task. and also why seeking out the help from ASCA and the BACC is really important for something like this 

i understand my reputation on here might not be the best and for completely valid reasons. but that does not change the fact that I care deeply about this place and want to see it last. I hope this is something that we can all build a lasting relationship off of. 

Ive got the next week off if anyone wants to go climb!

Cooper Houstonwrote:

in hindsight i realized that that was not the right way to go about things and this is something that I reflected in my last post stating:

 "we did all of the rebolting at indian sans permit and didn't run into that much trouble. but the time that this would take and the high potential to ruin the rock is why this is such a daunting task. and also why seeking out the help from ASCA and the BACC is really important for something like this"

You do realize that your quoted post is stating that your interpretation of what was done was not the "right way" only because of the time it would take and the effect upon the rock, right? 

You post did not seem to indicate at all that you understood the possibility of losing access to rebolting (and thus, increasing the safety concerns of bolts that need replacing) that come from acting without proper authorization from the land managers. 

I am sorry i didn't realize that i needed to publicly apologize for rebolting without permits. I realize that it was not the best way to go about it and can sometimes result in the loss of that privilege. 

This is a conversation that I really really do not want to have again but we did received some form of approval from a county park worker while we were there... like I just said I am not trying to start this conversation again and I am most certainly not trying to justify our actions because i do realize that It was inappropriate and unnecessarily risky, but at the time i was under the impression that we weren't doing anything wrong.

To reiterate, I now understand why what we did was not OK and can't continue to happen. and honestly if hearing it through mountain project isn't going to cut it, I will be at mortar Rock tomorrow all day. and i am happy to have a conversation about it

To get back on topic, what are the appropriate steps to getting all the button heads at lyme disease replaced?  

The anchor bolts for Deliverance could use an upgrade. They're rusty wedge bolts right now, but more importantly causes a ton of rock wear when lowering.

The moves past the lip are 5.8 and don't really change the route. Topping out is always cool, but I don't think it's worth it here. I would suggest adding a new anchor with the lower offs ~2' below the last bolt.

Still keep the upper anchor for top access, though.