Olympic Routesetters All Male?!

Here come the man purse swinging clowns!

I'm more of a misandrist if any climbers even know what that means.

Namaste.

Kevin Worrallwrote:

C’mon Jim, wimen are no smarter than men overall, I’ve known women to do some really dumb things. Speaking of sewer lines, women put some really dumb stuff down the toilet and the garbage disposal.

Men who say women are smarter have ulterior motives, or they’re just not that smart, It all depends on your definition of smart.

What’s your theory on why I’ve never met a female plumber?  Maybe “smart” is the wrong word.  

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16823409/

Studies also show a wider variation spectrum for males - higher percentage of males tumble out of both ends of the bell curve compared to females.

Women, for the most part, aren't taking on dead end, low paying, dangerous, or nonglamorous jobs because they don't have to. Women have the option to opt out. Men don't. 

Side note... reality is sexist. The problem is humans have grown to believe they can control, and/or manipulate reality. 

Someone may want to quote this post for posterity because it will, most likely, get cut out of this thread.

Jim Twrote:

What’s your theory on why I’ve never met a female plumber?  Maybe “smart” is the wrong word.  

I hear plumbing pays pretty well. This woman is a proud plumber and climber.

Kevin Worrallwrote:

Maybe this has something to do wid it:

Summary: Men consistently outperform women on spatial tasks, including mental rotation, which is the ability to identify how a 3-D object would appear if rotated in space. ... Moreover, in men, the greater parietal lobe surface area is directly related to better performance on mental rotation tasks.

Results from men doing spatial problem solving:

Results from women doing spatial problem solving:

Sam Cieplywrote:

I hear plumbing pays pretty well. This woman is a proud plumber and climber.

Being a plumber pays really well but calling someone that works for roto-rooter a plumber is like calling someone that works for jiffy lube a mechanic

Luke Fwrote:

Results from men doing spatial problem solving:

 

Results from women doing spatial problem solving:

lol. 

to play devils advocate. thats some extreme cherry pickin

Michael Bradywrote:

lol. 

to play devils advocate. thats some extreme cherry pickin

I think you may not understand what the devils advocate does.

Namaste

M Mwrote:

I think you may not understand what the devils advocate does.

Namaste

No. I said that because I don't necessarily disagree with him but I argued against him regardless

I hate to clutter up an emotional discussion with facts, but 5% of plumbers are women, and plumbing is a broad profession, no pun intended, that requires a lot of knowledge and expertise, especially at the highest commercial levels, plus it pays really well. Clearing waste lines is considered a plumbing job, but trying to say women are too smart to be plumbers because that is part of the profession is silly. As silly as comparing that primitive climbing wall to the flowing structure, apparently designed by a woman, to show female superiority in spatial relationships.

It’s like pointing at Lynn Hill’s FFA of The Nose to try and prove women are better climbers than men.

Women are few and far between in the field of plumbing for many of the same reasons they’re rare as arborists, construction workers, loggers, miners, auto mechanics, wood workers, heavy equipment operators, landscapers, truck drivers, special forces personnel and fire fighters. Those are all dirty, dangerous and strenuous professions. To say women are too smart to participate in them is absurd, and sexist.

Women are different than men!

Women have different innate drives and skills, and to generalize, lots of jobs that are attractive to men, aren’t to women, and vice versa. No amount of feminists preaching that men and women are the same is going to change that, and pointing it out is not misogynistic

As far as plumbing specifically goes, it involves digging (hard on the hands and nails, strenuous), dealing with human excrement (EWWWW!!), crawlspace and attic work (awkward, dirty, SPIDERS!!!), sweating copper (stinky, fire hazard), gluing ABS and PVC (messy for hands and clothes), and remembering that it’s righty tighty, lefty loosey - all things most women don’t want to deal with.

come on, drop a "heforshe" and post up the shirtless pics next

Kevin Worrallwrote:

As far as plumbing specifically goes, it involves digging (hard on the hands and nails, strenuous), dealing with human excrement (EWWWW!!), crawlspace and attic work (awkward, dirty, SPIDERS!!!), sweating copper (stinky, fire hazard), gluing ABS and PVC (messy for hands and clothes), and remembering that it’s righty tighty, lefty loosey - all things most women don’t want to deal with.

See Tradi, THIS is how to troll. You can't go looking for the sexist buffoonery, you have to PLAY the sexist buffoon. Keep it just believable enough that folks will think you're serious and get worked up.

Unless of course Kevin is Tradi... In which case, props.  

I can’t believe this conversation… no, I guess I can.

Obviously women as a group are different from men as a group. But when it comes to strength, it’s two slightly-shifted-but-heavily-overlapping bell curves, rather than two non-overlapping ones. The median is different, the standard deviation is big. And specifically as it relates to climbing, the difference between men and women is very small

There are very few female setters at the top level because it reflects the climbing demographics from decades ago, when women were a much smaller minority in the climbing community, and also the social factors that affected the career-making decisions.

When I started setting, I was the only female route setter in the area. There are now at least 5 (that I know of) paid/employed female routesetters, in the same geographical area, not counting me, since I’m not setting anymore. That’s a substantial increase.

Given time, some of these setters will go on to obtain certifications needed for regional, national, and international comps. Will it ever be 50%? I don’t think so. But will it be more than 3 women world-wide? I bet, it will be a lot more. 

And I didn’t think it needed to be said, but obviously: women can set good routes for both men and women, Men can also do the same. Both can also set shitty routes. Thinking back to local female setters, there’s one whose routes I almost always hate, and one whose routes I almost always love. The rest are in between.

And specifically as it relates to climbing, the difference between men and women is very small

Where gym climbing is concerned, simple physical strength, particularly strength to weight ratio and weight to hold size ratio are clear cut factors, and the difference is small, but constant.

Across the spectrum of real climbing, however, from highball bouldering to first ascents to big wall to alpine extremes, “strength” takes on a different meaning, and the difference is huge.

Kevin Worrallwrote:

Where gym climbing is concerned, simple physical strength, particularly strength to weight ratio and weight to hold size ratio are clear cut factors, and the difference is small, but constant.

Across the spectrum of real climbing, however, from highball bouldering to first ascents to big wall to alpine extremes, “strength” takes on a different meaning, and the difference is huge.

Yes, there are fewer women doing highball bouldering, or getting alpine FAs. Again, a mixture of biology, and sociology. The ratio would probably never be close to 50/50, but I do think that in the future there will be more women represented in all of these endeavors.

What does that have to do with gym routesetting as a job? 

Nothing, but the OP distinctly questioned the gender disparity aspect in the route setting facet of climbing.

I was responding to your claim that the difference btw men and women strength wise in climbing is very small. If you mostly climb in the gym I can see how you would have that perspective. Sport climbing and bouldering are similar.

Lena chitawrote:

I can’t believe this conversation… no, I guess I can.

Don't fall for it Lena!! He's a troll who gets his kicks from being yelled at by forceful women. I think he just wants to cosplay the middle-aged hometown hero from a Hallmark movie who teaches the shrill businesswoman that the secret of Christmas was in front of her all along: moving back home and submitting to a strong man who knows her poor emotions can't handle hard work

Kevin Worrallwrote:

I hate to clutter up an emotional discussion with facts, but 5% of plumbers are women, and plumbing is a broad profession, no pun intended, that requires a lot of knowledge and expertise, especially at the highest commercial levels, plus it pays really well. Clearing waste lines is considered a plumbing job, but trying to say women are too smart to be plumbers because that is part of the profession is silly. As silly as comparing that primitive climbing wall to the flowing structure, apparently designed by a woman, to show female superiority in spatial relationships.

It’s like pointing at Lynn Hill’s FFA of The Nose to try and prove women are better climbers than men.

Women are few and far between in the field of plumbing for many of the same reasons they’re rare as arborists, construction workers, loggers, miners, auto mechanics, wood workers, heavy equipment operators, landscapers, truck drivers, special forces personnel and fire fighters. Those are all dirty, dangerous and strenuous professions. To say women are too smart to participate in them is absurd, and sexist.

Women are different than men!

Women have different innate drives and skills, and to generalize, lots of jobs that are attractive to men, aren’t to women, and vice versa. No amount of feminists preaching that men and women are the same is going to change that, and pointing it out is not misogynistic

As far as plumbing specifically goes, it involves digging (hard on the hands and nails, strenuous), dealing with human excrement (EWWWW!!), crawlspace and attic work (awkward, dirty, SPIDERS!!!), sweating copper (stinky, fire hazard), gluing ABS and PVC (messy for hands and clothes), and remembering that it’s righty tighty, lefty loosey - all things most women don’t want to deal with.

LMAO!!! that last paragraph.....

.................

What do the trades and routesetting have in common? They have been traditionally masculine heavy, for one. That's changing, but it takes awhile.

But two? 

They rely heavily on hands on learning, from master to apprentice, including a formal structure, in some cases. So, sure, there have been a few women in trades....or the military, or firefighting, or farming. But? A whole bunch of the earlier women doing this stuff were the daughters of...trades, firefighters, farmers, etc. A person has to have a lightbulb go off that this is even something to consider. If it's the family business, you know someone, it's much more likely to be a contender.

People also are forgetting about college, versus trade schools. It's only recently that trade schools weren't heavily men or women, and high school programs were definitely gendered bitd. "Powderpuff" mechanics, teaching how to change a flat tire, versus pull out an engine for the "shop" class. If boys signed up for cooking, or girls for shop, it was either a really strong interest, or, simply knowing that they'd be in a class with a whole bunch of dating material, lol! At my age, that's two generations, if you're figuring 20 years per, or less, in many places, where it changed even slower.

It simply takes time.

In the meantime, good setters aren't setting by gender, but they might choose to set by height. All those little kids.....

I watched a truly little girl (shorter than me!), on a 5.10+ at my gym today. Not because she's that capable, or strong. She didn't know, and simply liked the red color. Did about a third of it, totally legit, then added in the blue 5.7 holds, picking and choosing her route! It was fun to see! 

Best, Helen

Cat.wrote:

Don't fall for it Lena!! He's a troll who gets his kicks from being yelled at by forceful women. 

You would know, having a grand total of 11 posts on MP