Gyms Removing Auto-belays

JonasMRwrote:

Is the added idiot alarm not a thing? I haven't heard of it, but I don't know auto belays. 

I go to a gym that has these. They alert if you aren’t clipped in or if you go off route.

They are constantly malfunctioning. Constantly alerting for no reason. And also just not working at all. Usually at least one is down completely it seems like. 

I’m sure the gym is weighing the headache and maintenance costs of this versus the cost of lawyers. Tellingly, only one of their locations has these alarms. (Though all their locations do have double clips I believe.)

If my gym removed the autobelays they would have to increase their membership prices. The gym gets a lot of money from the first-timers, and without autobelays, they would not come. 

That said, they are always fooling with the autobelays. The damm things make me nervous!

Interesting.  I just went to a gym for the first time in over a year to discover that all of their top rope setups have been converted to autobelays.  Belaying with a partner is no longer possible at this gym.  Every section of every wall now has an autobelay.  I was told this change was made in the name of "safety."  

As far as not clipping in properly, I dunno.

Personally I feel more vulnerable to injury or death walking up and down the stairs at my gym. The controversy over autobelays feeds into a bigger one the industry has yet to solve: how to expand a sport that can suddenly kill you, usually without warning. That said autobelays are a massively useful tool that when used correctly have a reliability that rando partners definitely lack, especially on difficult routes where there's a high chance of falling. For experienced climbers on a time budget, they are a godsend and clearly a draw for many regardless. Better instruction in their use? Sure. Better observation on the floor? Sure. A bombproof waiver saying if I am injured or die on a autobelay it's my own damn fault, regardless of mechanical failure or negligence on the gym's part or anything else. Definitely. I have yet to hear of any autobelay incident in the past decade that was the result of anything beyond user error. I would trust them implicitly, same as the gym's ropes, bolts or carabiners.

Agreed Peter, just like the Gri Gri,  I didn't trust it at first, and downclimbed instead.  But after getting a feel for it, it is surely safer than driving a car.  The only way to get hurt is by fucking up big time.  Unfortunately, you can't fix stupid.

I've never felt comfortable on the autobelays--totally psychological, I know, but still...  I have no problem trusting myself to a good climbing rope, even some of the thin current ones (though admit to being a bit dubious of the thinnest of them), but just can't 'accept' the 'tapes' on the autobelays--even though they are rated for a million pounds or something. But, as an admitted hangdog, it is the 'automatic lower if you fall' aspect that really drives me crazy. They've had them in our local gym for around a year and I've yet to use them--for me they are just a waste of 'good wall space'.

Sam Cieplywrote:

The morale of the place? Sorry, I like my headphones. I don’t see why a climbing gym can’t be a training center for some and community center for others.

I’ve never had autobelays available at my gyms, but I do wish we had them.

I personally feel that if we removed all the ropes and replaced them with auto-belays it would be an impersonal experience and each auto belay makes the gym feel a little bit less personal. 

Determinants to auto belays:

• All the training benefits can easily be done with a spray wall 
• The more auto belays the less personal the experience
• You reduce your practical capacity in half since now a spot on the wall that required two people only requires one
• People are rude AF with the auto belays often occupying them for 20-40min (this wouldn't be a problem in a low capacity gym but in Seattle you pretty much can't do any form of rope climbing afterwork since the gyms are so crazy then two people are on the auto belay the whole time you are there)
• Seems like there are more accidents per person than normal belaying
• Without them you need to be friendlier and find a partner

Peter Bealwrote:

 The controversy over autobelays feeds into a bigger one the industry has yet to solve: how to expand a sport that can suddenly kill you, usually without warning. 

"All the training benefits can easily be done with a spray wall 

Seems like there are more accidents per person than normal belaying

Without them you need to be friendlier and find a partner"

First point is unlikely to be accurate. Few spray walls exist in commercial gyms that would allow 25-35 moves of uninterrupted climbing without a lot of traversing and if anyone just happens to jump on in front of you, then what? Spray walls are also usually too steep to allow the kind of climbing that autobelays provide.

I doubt the second point has any statistical validity. Climbers get dropped etc all the time in gyms and bouldering is probably the worst source of non-fatal serious injuries.

When I climb without a partner (on purpose or not), I am usually in a bit of a hurry TBH and don't have the time to appraise the belaying ability or compatibility of someone, not to mention I may just want to climb without devoting time to belaying someone else. Responsibilities such as job family etc, can have that effect on people.

When used correctly, autobelays are definitely much safer than some of the cowboy belaying techniques I see all the time

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

I personally feel that if we removed all the ropes and replaced them with auto-belays it would be an impersonal experience and each auto belay makes the gym feel a little bit less personal. 

Determinants to auto belays:

• All the training benefits can easily be done with a spray wall 
• The more auto belays the less personal the experience
• You reduce your practical capacity in half since now a spot on the wall that required two people only requires one
• People are rude AF with the auto belays often occupying them for 20-40min (this wouldn't be a problem in a low capacity gym but in Seattle you pretty much can't do any form of rope climbing afterwork since the gyms are so crazy then two people are on the auto belay the whole time you are there)
• Seems like there are more accidents per person than normal belaying
• Without them you need to be friendlier and find a partner

If you use a spray wall for your ARC workout, you are gonna be hogging that too. I used to spend hours on the spray wall at my gym doing this 2-3 days per week and it was incredibly boring. Probably would be pretty boring on an autobelay too, but I think having a handful of routes to mess around on autobelay would be more fun and a better alternative to hogging the one spray wall day after day.

Luckily our spray wall is adjustable so I can make it vertical or very gently overhanging, but Peter is right, traversing around in circles isn’t ideal and it’s not very realistic to share if someone else wants to use it. Also I have fallen off the top a couple of times which sucked.

Personally, I would rather boulder than buddy up with some random for a belay. I also prefer to go to the gym around 11am on weekdays when there really aren’t very many people there.

Peter Bealwrote:

"All the training benefits can easily be done with a spray wall 

Seems like there are more accidents per person than normal belaying

Without them you need to be friendlier and find a partner"

First point is unlikely to be accurate. Few spray walls exist in commercial gyms that would allow 25-35 moves of uninterrupted climbing without a lot of traversing and if anyone just happens to jump on in front of you, then what? Spray walls are also usually too steep to allow the kind of climbing that autobelays provide.

I don't think I have ever seen someone on the spray wall at the Seattle gyms and some of them are not that steep like there is a flat one at vertical world next to the day care. Also people probably won't jump on right next to you. If you are arcing its probably so easy you can just switch directions. Also I imagine tread walls are expensive but they are probably cheaper than the panneling+auto belay.

I doubt the second point has any statistical validity. Climbers get dropped etc all the time in gyms and bouldering is probably the worst source of non-fatal serious injuries.

If the gym is removing the auto belay because they are worried about getting sued, if bouldering/TRing was more dangerous you think they would prevent those as well just to avoid lawsuits (aka no climbing gyms). 

When I climb without a partner (on purpose or not), I am usually in a bit of a hurry TBH and don't have the time to appraise the belaying ability or compatibility of someone, not to mention I may just want to climb without devoting time to belaying someone else. Responsibilities such as job family etc, can have that effect on people.

Doesn't a low angle spray wall work for this or just traversing the gym?

When used correctly, autobelays are definitely much safer than some of the cowboy belaying techniques I see all the time

I wonder if anyone tracks climbing gym deaths versus cause?

Edit: To parachute, since I don't go to the gym wouldn't they want to attract me as a customer?

Edit: I guess one interesting question I have is that bouldering gyms must be ineffective places to train since you need an auto belay to arc?

Edit: to the point about kids, I think they don't care whether your bouldering or climbing on a rope they will run under you. I think the placement of the spray wall and auto belay dictates the probability they are under you. Granted fall on them from an auto belay would be more ideal than boulderiing.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

I don't think I have ever seen someone on the spray wall at the Seattle gyms and some of them are not that steep like there is a flat one at vertical world next to the day care. Also people probably won't jump on right next to you. If you are arcing its probably so easy you can just switch directions. 

I have had small children, usually unsupervised, running around below me and pulling onto the wall while I’m dripping sweat and super pumped after 25 minutes of circling the spray wall. I’m really gonna have to disagree with your perspective on this as someone who DOES go to the gym and DOES use the spray wall for endurance training. You are just making me want an autobelay in my life even more!

Trevor, you sure have alot of opinions on gyms for someone who one page ago claimed to not go to gyms.

Jeremy Lwrote:

RoKC has made it virtually impossible to forget to clip in.

As far as not clipping in properly, I dunno.

The gym I frequent has a similar system but half the time people are moving the auto belay lines out of the way to clip in points on the floor and lead climbing, and then not putting these back....

Personally I just want to see less auto belays in gyms, not none, not everywhere. 3 sounds like a good number. 

In any case, it seems for the near future there will be many auto-belays lying around. Perhaps if enough are strung together we can finally auto-belay up El Cap.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Edit: I guess one interesting question I have is that bouldering gyms must be ineffective places to train since you need an auto belay to arc?

Edit: to the point about kids, I think they don't care whether your bouldering or climbing on a rope they will run under you. I think the placement of the spray wall and auto belay dictates the probability they are under you. Granted fall on them from an auto belay would be more ideal than boulderiing.

I think it’s safe to say that a bouldering gym with short, mostly steep walls, is not an ideal place to train endurance for longer roped climbs.

And yes, I would be much less concerned about falling on a kid from 30’-50’ while attached to an autobelay than from 20’ with nothing to slow the fall.

Here’s a pic of Connor Herson cooling down on one of the long and gently overhanging routes that I wish had autobelays at my gym (we do have one autobelay on the damn speed wall).

Jason Zevenbergenwrote:

In any case, it seems for the near future there will be many auto-belays lying around. Perhaps if enough are strung together we can finally auto-belay up El Cap.

I just feel bad for the ranger who is going to have to double check each of those autolocking biners.

Seriously though, if the buzz-for-unattached-climber auto belay exists, but just buzzes too much, this sounds like an engineering problem. Get the false positive rate down. Prolly some money in that if everyone is taking their buzzer-less auto belays down.

Chris Mwrote:

Curious what you guys think, our gym is now removing their auto-belays (I assume as a response to both law suits and recent accidents).

“This pause will allow us time to participate in industry conversations as they relate to the continued use of auto belays and make decisions on when, how or if they will be reintroduced into our facilities.”

I use auto-belays almost every time I’m in the gym, so this is a little weird and frustrating. I use them as warm ups for hard bouldering for strength workouts, when I can’t find a partner or waiting for a late partner to show up, never had an issue and they always seem pretty safe to me. Curious what you guys think about removing auto belays in response to what’s going on? Are they really that dangerous? Is there something we can do to make them safer? 

auto belay's are aid

Jeremy Lwrote:

RoKC has made it virtually impossible to forget to clip in.

As far as not clipping in properly, I dunno.

Still really easy depending on the setup/rules. Where I climb we sometimes have to move the clip to the bottom and out of the way of the top rope. 

I've seem people straight up jump on the wall because they are so excited and not even realize they climbed over top/around/stepped behind the caution sign. On of those things people don't realize they did it until after the fact.