Simul rapping with beginners is safer

Just tandem rap. Equally fast, and *actually* safer. 

The beginner simul-rap thing is more of a kinky mating dance than a descent technique. Mark my words, in every case, every case - the "experienced" climber is lusting after her noob.

Cool, this will help lower the number of people at the crags.

Will Johnsonwrote:

if there are real risks I'm not aware of I want to know about them.

Maintaining balance on a ridge/arete is harder when the rope you're on unexpectedly "gives".

Single-strand rappel is harder to control than double, especially <=9mm.

A friction hitch that works great on a double rope may not catch on a single.

Serge Swrote:

Maintaining balance on a ridge/arete is harder when the rope you're on unexpectedly "gives".

Single-strand rappel is harder to control than double, especially <=9mm.

A friction hitch that works great on a double rope may not catch on a single.

To your first point, I think that this is only an issue if you are doing a true simul-rap which I agree with everyone else here is a bad idea. But if done on a blocking system like my post a page ago, this issue goes away as well.

The other two can be predicted and prepared for accordingly -- ideally we'd be using Gri-Gris anyway 

Em Coswrote:

Just tandem rap. Equally fast, and *actually* safer. 

I think I'll just repost this 1000 times (Of course tandem rappelling does not look very neat and cool) 

Darin Berdinkawrote:

I think I'll just repost this 1000 times (Of course tandem rappelling does not look very neat and cool) 

Also, tandem rappelling has its own set of peculiarities.  Have you done much tandem rapelling?  I've found very few systems that allow two equally sized people to tandem rap with any level of comfort.  They exist, but aren't as easy as tying a rescue spider with a 48" and going for it.  I relegate tandem rappelling to companion self-rescue.

The number of accidents related to rappelling dictate a tried-and-true approach:  All partners pre-rig extended rappels using ATC style belay devices with tested third-hand backups below the device.  Partners check each other and weight the system before disconnecting tethers from the anchor.  First person rappels, controlling the ends with knots and possibly carrying coils down if windy.  As soon as they are safely anchored at the next station, the next can descend.  Meanwhile the first down unties the knot in the pull strand, threads it through the anchor, and reties the stopper knot.  Partner(s) arrive, pull the rope and center the middle mark/knot at the next station.  Basket or toss the rest of the ropes and repeat as many times as necessary.  It works.  

Yes, there is room for variation.  For example, lowering the first down if serious wind is an issue but the next station is visible.  Or fixing a line for the partner with a GriGri to descend on first. Using a third hand above the DCD when anticipating a knot pass.  Or when fixed anchors are questionable: having the first take packs, rack, etc and bounce test the anchor with a loose backup and then having the second remove backups to their comfort before smoothly descending. 

But ultimately simul-rapping or using a reepschnur with a non-rated super skinny retrieval cord and other such hijinks are not the best, fastest, most reliable way to descend across varied situations (wet/icy ropes, difficulty finding stations, rapping with haul bags, etc).

But wHAT aBoUT mY grIGri?!  Just carry a tube style device, at least one on the team.  The versatility is well worth it.  And if you're really absolutely hung up on carrying two grigris between partners with no tube style device, consider an extended rappel with an improvised 2-locker carabiner break and third hand below.

Philip Magistrowrote:

  First person rappels, controlling the ends with knots and possibly carrying coils down if windy.  As soon as they are safely anchored at the next station, the next can descend.  Meanwhile the first down unties the knot in the pull strand, threads it through the anchor, and reties the stopper knot.

I used to do exactly this... until I realized that my partner now (yes, only for a moment) has no knot in one side, thus I leave the ropes in my device, pulling out 6-8ft of slack so partner can begin their rap. Alternatively, tie a quick overhand about 6ft from the end, then untie the stopper and thread the pull strand through. Really doesn't take that much more time but it's the one single time my partner would not have stopper knots in both ends. And yes, carrying the coil of one side generally takes very little time and saves a sh** ton of time with the reduced fusterclucks.

SinRopa wrote:

The absolute fastest way, especially on steep or overhanging terrain, is to set up a Dülfersitz for both climbers and tether them together.

Correction, the absolute fastest way is to jump off.

all the crazy shit people come up with makes me appreciate that I usualy just climb with the same partner as of 23 years or solo...

Christian Heschwrote:

I used to do exactly this... until I realized that my partner now (yes, only for a moment) has no knot in one side, thus I leave the ropes in my device, pulling out 6-8ft of slack so partner can begin their rap. Alternatively, tie a quick overhand about 6ft from the end, then untie the stopper and thread the pull strand through. Really doesn't take that much more time but it's the one single time my partner would not have stopper knots in both ends. And yes, carrying the coil of one side generally takes very little time and saves a sh** ton of time with the reduced fusterclucks.

The J Loop

I just ran out of popcorn. Anyone have extra?