How to get new climbers to understand the risks

In an accident thread, Peter Beal makes this excellent point-

It also illuminates a fundamental truth that the industry has yet to figure out what to do with, namely that climbing is potentially suddenly and irreversibly fatal in a way that most other consumer-oriented sports are not. How to impress upon newer climbers (and re-remind veterans) just how dangerous it is? 

OTOH, I'm not sure climbing is unique in terms of its risks.

IIRC, about 10 skiers die annually in Colorado alone. 

Maybe the same number of white water rafters. 

Even Crossfit probably sees a few deaths each year.

Climbing, especially gym climbing, is marketed as safe and mostly is.

Public opinion has gone moved from "daredevil foolishness" to "wholesome after school activity."

Not sure how that is going to change at this point. 

Nevertheless, I do wonder why the non-climbing media has never latched onto one of these tragic stories. 

I agree that it is tragic, but not climbing-specific. As climbing becomes more popular, we will see the low-percentage accidents.

And I don’t know that much more could be done about it. People already sign waivers describing the dangers— without reading them, I must add. People already watch the orientation videos— or play on the phone while the video drones on, in the background.

It’s not like anyone really doesn’t understand that fall from heights could be fatal. It is human nature. We become complacent around stuff that is familiar, and with complacency comes the casual cavalier attitude.

People read a story like that, and say, yeah, but *I* never… at best, it will make people extra-careful for the next brief time frame, and then everyone will revert to their baseline level of attention and care. 

"Nevertheless, I do wonder why the non-climbing media has never latched onto one of these tragic stories. "

Money. There's money to be made in pitching climbing as a safe after-school activity. There's no money to be made in scaring folks away.

It seems doubly hard since there is a natural fear of heights, and that’s one of the first things to overcome in climbing.

Day one of climbing includes defeating your monkey-brain response to risk. Now you have to replace that with a conscious understanding of risk? I thought we were overcoming risk, not paying attention to it?

How about “We” make a Red Asphalt type of short film. When I make my first climbing trip to Josh, I got out of the car and was looking at a big fresh blood stain running down a climb!

Today I’m always amazed at the fresh climbers at Stoney- absolutely not afraid of the hi-ball problems. I have held the broken leg, ankle, with compound fracture of more than a few while waiting for #96 to arrive.

Well the world media made plenty of noise over the Matterhorn in 1865 and nothings changed since, fall from a long way up and you are dead. Seems reasonably obvious to me.

Guy Keeseewrote:

Today I’m always amazed at the fresh climbers at Stoney- absolutely not afraid of the hi-ball problems. I have held the broken leg, ankle, with compound fracture of more than a few while waiting for #96 to arrive.

It’s amazing how many new people I meet at Stoney who don’t seem to realize that taking a 20 footer onto a 4” Metolius pad could end poorly.  

One very simple part of this is the fact that most people have "that happens to other people" as their comfortable default. 

Including death.

A great many people haven't even experienced the death of a pet, in person, or had anything happen that scared the crap out of them.

This thing we do is dangerous, every bit of it, every single time. We aren't able to keep up that sorta vigilance nonstop, we rely on having the chance to mitigate the risk as we go, hope our instincts function fast, when needed, and, well, pure blind luck in those really awful scenarios. 

If, on top of all that, your very mortality is an abstract theoretical?

It's way, way, harder to get that yes, this shit can indeed happen to me, at any time at all. 

I've not climbed with a few people, based on that alone, their assumption it's all gonna be peachy keen forever.

Best, Helen

@Gunkiemike- I agree that gyms have a financial interest in downplaying the risk, but can't fully understand why the New York Times, for example, wouldn't want to play up such human tragedies.

Lena chita wrote: We become complacent around stuff that is familiar, and with complacency comes the casual cavalier attitude.

I agree with this too, but it isn't quite what I'm getting at. 

The general public, and new climbers, think climbing is safe. 

This is very different from when I started climbing many decades ago.

I no longer encourage people to take up climbing, because I've seen the effect of tragic mishaps.

Even so, I think it's a great sport and can't understand why anyone would do anything else. 

But maybe know what you are getting into.

Locker wrote:

I don't believe you are correct on that one

people I talk to that don't climb think it's a very dangerous sport and are usually quick to make that point

You could be right, I do live in the bubble...

But aren't you in JTree? 

Also not exactly main street USA :-)

Probably about to get locked out of this thread- enjoy till tomorrow 

Locker wrote:

Mark, yes I am in the J Tree area these days

for sure not Main Street USA... LOL!

why do you think this thread is going to get locked?

Not locked thread, he'll reach his post limit. Soooo annoying!

This is very different from when I started climbing many decades ago. 

I agree.

Locker wrote:

I don't believe you are correct on that one

people I talk to that don't climb think it's a very dangerous sport and are usually quick to make that point

Same here, also live in a rural area of the country .

 Maybe its more of the urban gym people who tend to think the outdoors is as safe as the gym with one 4" pad or a shiny new rack of totems and a YouTube instruction video?

Optimism Bias

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimism_bias

I think humans are generally wired to have this bias.  I suspect we need it to operate on a regular basis (e.g., driving a car, taking a flight, drinking alcohol or taking drugs, wesring a covid mask, etc).

If you figure out how to overcome Optimism Bias then you'll have your answer and many others' answers.

Gunkiemikewrote:

"Nevertheless, I do wonder why the non-climbing media has never latched onto one of these tragic stories. "

Money. There's money to be made in pitching climbing as a safe after-school activity. There's no money to be made in scaring folks away.

And here I thought it was because they haven’t found a way to blame all climbing accidents on Trump. 

The new climbers I climb with aren’t oblivious to the risks, on the contrary, they are overly aware and try and make up for it with over reliance on equipment which I guess might be good  until they get more experience.   They all have a PAS or two, several lockers, prusik chords, a cordalette or two because one is pre tired into a quad and a pair of gloves all hanging off their harness.  It’s seems that over time the reliance on gear to keep you safe makes way to experience.   As you gain experience you begin to realize that gear alone or more gear isn’t what keeps you from dying, it’s checking and double checking your knot and your systems as well as your partners.  All the lockers in the world won’t keep you from killing yourself if your paralyzed by fear and forget some crucial link in the system.   

Mark E Dixonwrote:

The general public, and new climbers, think climbing is safe. 

This is very different from when I started climbing many decades ago.

Around here, I see more people thinking that GYM climbing is safe, compared to when I started climbing. But if I ever mention that I was climbing over the weekend (outside, on real rock, without any guides, or anything!!!!) that is definitely greeted with the same level of incredulity as jumping out of airplanes for fun.

I no longer encourage people to take up climbing, because I've seen the effect of tragic mishaps.

I stopped encouraging people to take up climbing many years ago, after the initial new-climber excitement when I wanted all my friends to see how awesome it was, and nobody was interested.

Incredibly though, I have somehow managed to get my college friend into climbing just a couple of months ago. Still not sure how that happened, lol. I thought she would go once, and never again… but I was wrong  

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

The new climbers I climb with aren’t oblivious to the risks, on the contrary, they are overly aware and try and make up for it with over reliance on equipment which I guess might be good  until they get more experience.   They all have a PAS or two, several lockers, prusik chords, a cordalette or two because one is pre tired into a quad and a pair of gloves all hanging off their harness.  It’s seems that over time the reliance on gear to keep you safe makes way to experience.   As you gain experience you begin to realize that gear alone or more gear isn’t what keeps you from dying, it’s checking and double checking your knot and your systems as well as your partners.  All the lockers in the world won’t keep you from killing yourself if your paralyzed by fear and forget some crucial link in the system.   

Yeah but they don’t know how to use any of it. I generally try to take new people under my wing but am becoming increasingly hesitant to do so as more and more of them seem to want to skip learning the basics. 

nerds. i'm guessing most people in this thread are loser trad climbers. 

shed some body fat, drink a beer, wrestle a pebble and maybe clip some bolts.

ghhheeeezzzzzz

The new climbers I climb with aren’t oblivious to the risks, on the contrary, they are overly aware and try and make up for it with over reliance on equipment.

Good point.

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

The new climbers I climb with aren’t oblivious to the risks, on the contrary, they are overly aware and try and make up for it with over reliance on equipment which I guess might be good  until they get more experience.   

I think it's probably folks who have climbed long enough to get comfortable, but not long enough to lock in systems and have experience with near-misses or others' accidents, who are the most accident prone. Complacency is a dangerous place.