Camp 4 lottery: NPS Recreation.gov sham

Chris Topherwrote:

That right there sounds like a lot of BS and bouncing around...

Sorry your intended first trip to one of the most popular national parks in the country wasn't as easy as visiting the local city park. 

Fail Fallingwrote:

Sorry your intended first trip to one of the most popular national parks in the country wasn't as easy as visiting the local city park. 

No need to apologize Kevin, it's not really your fault ya know :)

Parachute Adamswrote:

The whole climber thing about I'm cheap is so last century. Grow up and make enough money to support your habit. Get over it. This is the new reality. The government is not here to support your habits. You're here to support theirs. Blame your parents. 

LOL This person is obviously a troll (per his empty profile) and totally missed the point at that.  This thread is about an unfair system and how it threatens access to a key climbing area… not just any climbing area but the Mecca of rock climbing.  (BTW dirtbag climbing on the cheap is just as valid as van-life glamper climbing, but that is beside the point.)

Access to Yosemite climbing is now highly restricted. There are almost no climbers in the Valley today compared to 2 years ago.  That is not ok.  I used to go up every weekend during the summers for days at a time and stay wherever I could park.  That is now impossible with this new system unless you bootleg it, nonetheless this current path can't hold for long....

Agreed with the other poster:  Everyone, please just go into the park after hours when the rangers don't man the entry stations and inundate the place until the system has to change.  That's how you can make a statement and make a difference.

Joshua Tree Runnerwrote:

LOL This person is obviously a troll (per his empty profile) and totally missed the point at that.  This thread is about an unfair system and how it threatens access to a key climbing area… not just any climbing area but the Mecca of rock climbing.  (BTW dirtbag climbing on the cheap is just as valid as van-life glamper climbing, but that is beside the point.)

Access to Yosemite climbing is now highly restricted. There are almost no climbers in the Valley today compared to 2 years ago.  That is not ok.  I used to go up every weekend during the summers for days at a time and stay wherever I could park.  That is now impossible with this new system unless you bootleg it, nonetheless this current path can't hold for long....

Agreed with the other poster:  Everyone, please just go into the park after hours when the rangers don't man the entry stations and inundate the place until the system has to change.  That's how you can make a statement and make a difference.

I agree that this is the move, but I believe they now have all bases covered to basically ticket every single for car in the park that is parked at literally any time without a permit displayed. It even says If you use highway 120 to pass through the park you’re not allowed to stop your car at any point. Civil disobedience is the answer but it’s going to come with quite a few tickets and citations at the conclusion of every single day spent climbing 

Joshua Tree Runnerwrote:

Access to Yosemite climbing is now highly restricted. 

Nope.  You're completely wrong about that. 

Nothing about freeclimbing is restricted. 

Nothing about Bigwalling is restricted. As there's no quotas or limits, NPS will not deny any bigwall overnight permit requests providing those requests are made in advance - and despite the stories people are telling, climbing rangers have no issue adjusting both the dates and the climb on the permit upon picking the permit up. (Except for the day use reservation system which is  which is temp and scheduled to end at the end of Sept of this year and is not a climbing specific restriction, and if one is requesting a bigwall overnight permit, that permit effectively works as an entry reservation just like having a campsite.)

JTR 2002 wrote:

There are almost no climbers in the Valley today compared to 2 years ago. 

Also incorrect. Typical conga lines on CPoF, Serenity/Sons, Super Slide, Royal Arches, Grack etc etc etc.  Multiple parties on El Cap, often multiple parties on the same route. There's less "climbers" just hanging around because everyone is on the routes and utilizing their time more efficiently because of the day use reservation schedule. I'm in the valley every weekend and have been doing this for the last 15 years. There's less people overall in the valley because of the day use reservations and though there may be les climbers asa function of the ratio of less people overall, it is not because of the "high amount" of "restrictions" on Yosemite climbing as you assume. Everyone I know who climbed consistently in the Valley previously is either still climbing in the Valley or stopped climbing in the Valley long ago, not because of restrictions, but because of the impossibility of getting around the valley when there's no reservation system and the tourons jam everything up. 

JTR 2002 wrote:

I used to go up every weekend during the summers for days at a time and stay wherever I could park.  That is now impossible with this new system unless you bootleg it, 

One could never just "stay wherever one could park" during high season in Yosemite during the last 20 years. That was illegal then just as it is now. The issues with camping reservations (except for camp4) are all issues that have been in place the entire time I've been going to the Valley. Nothing new here except new names whining about the same things. I'm not sure if by "bootleg" you mean illegally camping in the park without a permit or if you mean boondocking, aka dispersed camping on forest land outside the park. Nothing about the former has changed and nothing about the latter has changed; it's still illegal to park anywhere and camp in the park and it's still legal to boondock outside the park gates on forest land. 

JTR 2002 wrote:

Agreed with the other poster:  Everyone, please just go into the park after hours when the rangers don't man the entry stations and inundate the place until the system has to change.  That's how you can make a statement and make a difference.

Good luck with that. Enjoy your fines and the additional restrictions that will come from this sort of misguided and ineffective attempt at direct action. 

Fail Fallingwrote:

Nope.  You're completely wrong about that. 

Nothing about freeclimbing is restricted. 

Nothing about Bigwalling is restricted. As there's no quotas or limits, NPS will not deny any bigwall overnight permit requests providing those requests are made in advance - and despite the stories people are telling, climbing rangers have no issue adjusting both the dates and the climb on the permit upon picking the permit up. (Except for the day use reservation system which is  which is temp and scheduled to end at the end of Sept of this year and is not a climbing specific restriction, and if one is requesting a bigwall overnight permit, that permit effectively works as an entry reservation just like having a campsite.)

Also incorrect. Typical conga lines on CPoF, Serenity/Sons, Super Slide, Royal Arches, Grack etc etc etc.  Multiple parties on El Cap, often multiple parties on the same route. There's less "climbers" just hanging around because everyone is on the routes and utilizing their time more efficiently because of the day use reservation schedule. I'm in the valley every weekend and have been doing this for the last 15 years. There's less people overall in the valley because of the day use reservations and though there may be les climbers asa function of the ratio of less people overall, it is not because of the "high amount" of "restrictions" on Yosemite climbing as you assume. Everyone I know who climbed consistently in the Valley previously is either still climbing in the Valley or stopped climbing in the Valley long ago, not because of restrictions, but because of the impossibility of getting around the valley when there's no reservation system and the tourons jam everything up. 

One could never just "stay wherever one could park" during high season in Yosemite during the last 20 years. That was illegal then just as it is now. The issues with camping reservations (except for camp4) are all issues that have been in place the entire time I've been going to the Valley. Nothing new here except new names whining about the same things. I'm not sure if by "bootleg" you mean illegally camping in the park without a permit or if you mean boondocking, aka dispersed camping on forest land outside the park. Nothing about the former has changed and nothing about the latter has changed; it's still illegal to park anywhere and camp in the park and it's still legal to boondock outside the park gates on forest land. 

JTR 2002 wrote:

Good luck with that. Enjoy your fines and the additional restrictions that will come from this sort of misguided and ineffective attempt at direct action. 

I am only talking about overall restricted camp 4 access and overall restricted access to the park given the temp covid reservation system.  

Of course the wall climbing is not restricted, but the number of climbers IS lower because the entire park has restricted entry access.  That's a no-brainer.

If you somehow have full free access to the park everyday during this period of entry restriction, then you must somehow have some special access to the park that no regular Joe has. Glad you're milking it!  Also glad to hear you have never stayed in the park these last 20 years without a camping reservation since that would be wrong to do, right?

Thanks for the useful input and setting everyone straight on all topics.

snowcreek man wrote:

hi matt,

You have to read between the lines.   Gates never directly admit his and microsofts nefaroius dealings... microsoft- and Booz Allen are partners.  recreation.gov- is a microsoft/booz allen creation...  As for the "this" part- I cant help you.  you have to open your mind and be willing to see a bigger picture.  hindsight is 2020 ya know...lol

Tell me you’re not vaccinated without telling me you’re not vaccinated.

Joshua Tree Runnerwrote:

If you somehow have full free access to the park everyday during this period of entry restriction, then you must somehow have some special access to the park that no regular Joe has. Glad you're milking it!  Also glad to hear you have never stayed in the park these last 20 years without a camping reservation since that would be wrong to do, right?

I secured day use reservations for the entire length of the day use reservation period by logging into recreation.gov and getting them when they came out just like every other regular Joe, that actually cared to do something instead of whine about how they couldn't do anything, had access to. $2 for the reservation and you can refund that if it ends up being that you're not going to use those days. (edit: My mistake, you can't refund the $2, but you can cancel the reservation to open up the slot for others to grab if you won't be using the reservation) A small price to pay (and then refund) to keep the spontaneous aspect of traveling to the valley that everyone is complaining is gone. Somehow I doubt this qualifies as milking some special access. 

When I listen to people complain about the day use restrictions, most of what I hear breaks down to "I'm pissed because I refuse to plan ahead to visit one of the most popular parks for climbing in the entire country. Waaaaaaa" Meanwhile, I'm in the park whenever I want to, enjoying unfettered access to climbing, boondocking outside the park like I have for the last decade, and enjoying the fact that it no longer takes 3 hours to drive the loop if I want to change crags during the day. (And I will say that during the short period of time this season when NPS removed the day use reservations, the park immediately went back to the traffic clogged nightmare that is a greater restriction to climbing access than the day use reservations will ever be.)

Fail Fallingwrote:

I secured day use reservations for the entire length of the day use reservation period by logging into recreation.gov and getting them when they came out just like every other regular Joe, that actually cared to do something instead of whine about how they couldn't do anything, had access to. $2 for the reservation and you can refund that if it ends up being that you're not going to use those days. A small price to pay (and then refund) to keep the spontaneous aspect of traveling to the valley that everyone is complaining is gone. Somehow I doubt this qualifies as milking some special access. 

When I listen to people complain about the day use restrictions, most of what I hear breaks down to "I'm pissed because I refuse to plan ahead to visit one of the most popular parks for climbing in the entire country. Waaaaaaa" Meanwhile, I'm in the park whenever I want to, enjoying unfettered access to climbing, boondocking outside the park like I have for the last decade, and enjoying the fact that it no longer takes 3 hours to drive the loop if I want to change crags during the day. (And I will say that during the short period of time this season when NPS removed the day use reservations, the park immediately went back to the traffic clogged nightmare that is a greater restriction to climbing access than the day use reservations will ever be.)

Amen. Getting day use reservations was not/is not difficult. I grabbed 1-2 weekends per month between May and September without any trouble at all.

Is the situation ideal? No. Are there things that could be improved? Yes.

Despite that, the current situation is a huge improvement over the previous status quo.

Brandon Rwrote:

This lottery system, and these fee increases are ridiculous. I've already voiced my opinion to the NPS about the lottery system... will do so with the fee proposals too. And now the Lover's Leap campground is $28/night for a walk-in campsite that used to be free. Maybe our tax system needs to be reevaluated if the NPS/FS/BLM are running at such a deficit that they need to squeeze campers like this.

If you can afford gas to get to these locations you can afford the increased rates.  If you can't afford the increased rates then let's talk about budgeting (e.g., Do you really need that beer at the campsite?).

That said, the Lovers Leap campground got leased out to a company so the increased rates is probably the companies fault. But, the company has installed NEW Bear Bins, CLEAN the toilets daily, and have taken other initiatives to keep the campground nice. These improvements were much needed and the FS weren't making these improvements for some reason (I wonder if they simply didn't have the budget?)

Fail Fallingwrote:

When I listen to people complain about the day use restrictions, most of what I hear breaks down to "I'm pissed because I refuse to plan ahead to visit one of the most popular parks for climbing in the entire country. Waaaaaaa" Meanwhile, I'm in the park whenever I want to, enjoying unfettered access to climbing, boondocking outside the park like I have for the last decade, and enjoying the fact that it no longer takes 3 hours to drive the loop if I want to change crags during the day. (And I will say that during the short period of time this season when NPS removed the day use reservations, the park immediately went back to the traffic clogged nightmare that is a greater restriction to climbing access than the day use reservations will ever be.)

Bouncing off of Kevin.

That traffic clog was a NIGHTMARE. When headed back to Upper Pines we talked to a few drivers and they had been waiting for at least two hours and they had not moved. We saw the backup for another three hours. It was unfortunate and horrible.

As frustrating as the day-use permits can be, I promise they really helped solve a big problem.
--
Remember, the parks are for everyone and need to be managed for everyone.  We have started an abusive relationship with nature and are loving our parks to death.

Now we know who is sitting around tracking Recreation.gov and taking all the Yosemite day-use permits whether they use them or not. Not all of us are full-time unsponsored climbers that can do that. 

Way to openly milk the system and keep other climbers (and park visitors) out.  

Unlike a some, a lot us regular Joes have normal jobs and families that play into busy and changing life plans. 

Only on the interwebs can you have two full pages of bitching and moaning about a problem that can easily be solved in at least 4-5 diff ways (3 of which are legal!), just off the top of my head. 

Joshua Tree Runnerwrote:

Now we know who is sitting around tracking Recreation.gov and taking all the Yosemite day-use permits whether they use them or not. Not all of us are full-time unsponsored climbers that can do that. 

Way to openly milk the system and keep other climbers (and park visitors) out.  

Unlike a some, a lot us regular Joes have normal jobs and families that play into busy and changing life plans. 

I haven't looked since the first month when this system started, but there was no shortage of day use permits. They opened up at 8 am on Wednesdays and I often did not log on until 10 am - but there were still available permits on every weekend of the month

Again, it's not perfect. I have plenty of complaints. I also don't have a better proposal. What's your proposed alternative?

Joshua Tree Runnerwrote:

Now we know who is sitting around tracking Recreation.gov and taking all the Yosemite day-use permits whether they use them or not. Not all of us are full-time unsponsored climbers that can do that. 

Way to openly milk the system and keep other climbers (and park visitors) out.  

Unlike a some, a lot us regular Joes have normal jobs and families that play into busy and changing life plans. 

Nope. You're completely wrong. Again. (one would think you'd get tired of showing that your assumptions are completely off mark, but it takes all kinds I guess) 

• No regular Joe needs to be "sitting around tracking recreation.gov", all any regular Joe needs to do it log in on any web browser or mobile phone at a specific time (8am pacific, which is interestingly before most regular Joes start their regular Joe 9-5s) on a specific date, and spend about 10-15 minutes securing their reservations. Less time than those regular Joes spend on MP every day while at their regular Joe jobs. As someone that works a 60 hour week at my regular Joe job in the bay area, and drive to Yosemite every weekend and sometimes during the week for a day trip when I claim a day off using PTO that I accrued at said regular Joe job, I guess that puts me squarely in the "us" camp of people that are not full-time unsponsored climbers. As a representative of said group, I suggest you stop speaking for us because it's making us look petty and unable to accept honest rebuttals of what appears to be "our" point. 
• In regards to "taking all the permits whether they use them or not ... (and) openly milk(ing) the system and keep other climbers (and park visitors) out." Perhaps reading comprehension is not your forte as that is an interesting way of interpreting the info that once I know I'm not going to use a day use reservation, I cancel it on recreation.gov which immediately opens that reservation up for anyone looking for those dates. It takes approx 1 minute to do at the end of the day/ 
• It's funny that you're completely oblivious (or simply ignoring because you realize it would defeat your point) to the fact that your point that "us" regular Joes have normal jobs and families with busy and changing life plans actually bolsters my point. If one has busy and changing life plans, why wouldn't you spend the minimal amount of effort to secure the ability to know that when those busy life plans change, you'll be prepared with a reservation that will match those changes in plans.

Anywho, bored now. 

Hi Everybody,

I work as a climbing ranger in Yosemite.  Criticism and feedback about the new systems and proposed changes is important.  My opinion matters, but the publics opinion matters more.  Please send an email to the park by following this link.  This is a way to comment on the lottery system and the proposed fee increases.

Yosemite National Park Solicits Feedback on Proposed Campground Fee Increases - Yosemite National Park (U.S. National Park Service) (nps.gov)  

If you have concerns and feedback regarding the bigwall permitting system please send an email to yose_climbing@nps.gov

Thanks for loving this place and climbing in Yosemite

Eric

There is some ridiculous stuff being mentioned publicly on this thread. Makes me imagine a person sleeping in the boulders that then posts a map to his or her bivy spot on MP.

Some of these restrictions need some adjustments. Hopefully well thought out feedback will be sent to the links Eric posted, and adjustments will be made. Not holding my breath on that. Some of the changes this year have been nice, like folks have mentioned, reduced traffic for example. It’s not 100% all bad

We need to play nice, be respectful in regards to access issues and how we interact with public land officials as a unique user group.

Anyone that’s doing things on the down low, that they maybe shouldn’t be doing, for the love of god, please stop spraying about it online. 

Eric, Kevin, thank you both for your posts.

Fail Fallingwrote:

Nope. You're completely wrong. Again. (one would think you'd get tired of showing that your assumptions are completely off mark, but it takes all kinds I guess) 

• No regular Joe needs to be "sitting around tracking recreation.gov", all any regular Joe needs to do it log in on any web browser or mobile phone at a specific time (8am pacific, which is interestingly before most regular Joes start their regular Joe 9-5s) on a specific date, and spend about 10-15 minutes securing their reservations. 

It's 7am for campsites, if you're trying to get a site. 8am is also handy because all the camp sites that were just mouldering in indecisive people's carts get flushed out around then. To get a campsite inside Yosemite for a weekend, year round, means you have to log in at 7am 6 months in advance to have a hope of getting a weekend site. Lately, all sites are gone within 10 minutes.

It's really not conducive to folks who actually work for a living trying to catch good weather.

It is pretty trivial to get a weekday camp site or day pass only a few weeks in advance. But if you want to be there Friday, Saturday, or Sunday, be prepared for a slog.

Petsfed 00wrote:

It's 7am. 8 is handy because all the sites that were just mouldering in indecisive people's carts get flushed out around then. To get a campsite inside Yosemite for a weekend, year round, means you have to log in at 7am 6 months in advance to have a hope of getting a weekend site. Lately, all sites are gone within 10 minutes.

It's really not conducive to folks who actually work for a living trying to catch good weather.

It is pretty trivial to get a weekday camp site or day pass only a few weeks in advance. But if you want to be there Friday, Saturday, or Sunday, be prepared for a slog.

I believe he was referring to the day entry permits, not camp sites.

Marc801 Cwrote:

I believe he was referring to the day entry permits, not camp sites.

That is correct. I'll update my post accordingly.