Issue with Online Proselytizing (Trigger Warning)

Gloweringwrote:

The whole double taxation thing is usually a red herring. Money get's taxed in a series transactions all the time. Not to mention it's often not even the case for churches. You can typically deduct 100% of your church donations if you itemize. So not only is the church not paying on it, the person donating isn't paying income tax on it either!

Personally I'm okay with non profit stuff being not taxed. But the blanket exclusion of religion is troubling. If the church is feeding the poor, great. But televangelists can have a private plane and it's not taxed? But it would require hard work and reasonable politicians to work together to pass laws that deal with this in a fair way, so I'm not holding my breath.

Basically, the State has no business in the process whatsoever. Using the power of taxation or subsidies to pick economic winners also creates economic losers. Aka bullying.

Because of the element of Coercion that is State, using taxation as a means to direct society down certain paths is inherently immoral AF.

I'll take off my Anarchist King crown for a moment and acquiesce that there are some legitimate functions of State in the short term (it will kill us all eventually if left unchecked, but I digress). There is only one way that taxation could be deemed a justifiable theft. That way would be through a national consumption tax. As the only tax. The money you earn is all yours untill you decide to transact with it. Then, a percentage is taken from each transaction to fund the State. No exceptions. Donate to a church, or a political party, or to the Access Fund, or to Abortions for Everyone, Save the Prarie Dogs, etc., and that transaction is taxed. No exceptions, except for food and heat (under no circumstances ever should basic life necessities be taxed).

Then Joel Osteen gets taxed on everything he does. So does Antifa and The Proud Boys. The DNC and GOP get taxed on every donation, every commercial. 

If a person actually studies how consumption taxes would be superior in every possible aspect to the pure Extortion Shakedowns we have now, we'd be able to rid ourselves of tge utterly despicable pomitical class of parasites that makes our lives harder every day with zero benefit.

Seems pretty harmless to me. They're not hawking Miracle Spring Water and such. Personally I haven't seen any proselytizing here. Searching for like minded partners isn't proselytizing. Hey maybe you heathens should start renaming the christian routes too!

Ungovernable it’s a pipe dream to think there will be wholesale changes to our taxation system. The best we can hope for is small adjustments, which often end up being affected by the next change a few years later.

Government is inherently inefficient, corrupt, self serving, etc. But anarchy would be far worse. You’d end up with an oligarchy with billionaires control everything with no accountability. So tyranny.  

Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.

Dear Lord,

Protect us from your followers!

Looks like I’m in the minority about the ideology  filter. Sigh, yet another incremental adjustment to my psyche. :)

Gloweringwrote:

Ungovernable it’s a pipe dream to think there will be wholesale changes to our taxation system. The best we can hope for is small adjustments, which often end up being affected by the next change a few years later.

Government is inherently inefficient, corrupt, self serving, etc. But anarchy would be far worse. You’d end up with an oligarchy with billionaires control everything with no accountability. So tyranny.  

Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.

Anarchy is merely my philosophical stance. Being an Anarchist forbids me from bringing forth anarchy to others if that makes any sense. It is a stance that no human being or group of human beings has a legitimate claim to authority over an individual's life. A philosophical base from which my reaction to every human transaction I engage in is quantified.

Regarding the whole Oligarch Billionaires thing, that is literally what you have right now.

It is 100% facilitated by Centralized Currency and banking combined with the imposition of personal income tax. Every single program the State enacts leads to cash flow upwards to the 1%. Income tax on individuals is the collateral the 1% demands in order for them to lend us what is supposed to be our own money with interest. The interest payments on the national debt is our labor monetized. No Central Banks, Centralized fiat currency, no Oligarchs. We've evolved well past the serfs in the mud stage and wouldn't stand for it if you didn't have the state providing cover.

As for taxation,  Google the FAIR Tax. Everything we demand of government (aside from paying off the banks to lend us $) could and should be financed by the economy itself, not individuals. The reason why they won't allow it is because the Dominant Paradigm uses income taxation as a tool for compliance. 

As for Democracy, which is truly horrible when the majority steamrolls any minority, we also have an answer to that in a system called Approval Voting. Cast a vote for everything and everyone you approve of, most votes wins. Invented by a mathematician. Had we had it in place, we might have had a Sanders presidency. Or Jill Stien or Gary Johnson. Definitely never would have had that dismal choice of Trump or Clinton. Again, Google analysis on it too. Keep in mind the Duopoly will never relinquish power until we end them.

Claudine Longetwrote:

Anarchy is merely my philosophical stance. Being an Anarchist forbids me from bringing forth anarchy to others if that makes any sense. It is a stance that no human being or group of human beings has a legitimate claim to authority over an individual's life. A philosophical base from which my reaction to every human transaction I engage in is quantified.

Regarding the whole Oligarch Billionaires thing, that is literally what you have right now.

It is 100% facilitated by Centralized Currency and banking combined with the imposition of personal income tax. Every single program the State enacts leads to cash flow upwards to the 1%. Income tax on individuals is the collateral the 1% demands in order for them to lend us what is supposed to be our own money with interest. The interest payments on the national debt is our labor monetized. No Central Banks, Centralized fiat currency, no Oligarchs. We've evolved well past the serfs in the mud stage and wouldn't stand for it if you didn't have the state providing cover.

As for taxation,  Google the FAIR Tax. Everything we demand of government (aside from paying off the banks to lend us $) could and should be financed by the economy itself, not individuals. The reason why they won't allow it is because the Dominant Paradigm uses income taxation as a tool for compliance. 

As for Democracy, which is truly horrible when the majority steamrolls any minority, we also have an answer to that in a system called Approval Voting. Cast a vote for everything and everyone you approve of, most votes wins. Invented by a mathematician. Had we had it in place, we might have had a Sanders presidency. Or Jill Stien or Gary Johnson. Definitely never would have had that dismal choice of Trump or Clinton. Again, Google analysis on it too. Keep in mind the Duopoly will never relinquish power until we end them.

You really dwell on this subject eh? Does any of it mean much knowing you'll be 6 ft down just like everyone else? I agree with much of what you say BTW , its just odd in a proselytizing sort of way.

M Mwrote:

You really dwell on this subject eh? Does any of it mean much knowing you'll be 6 ft down just like everyone else? I agree with much of what you say BTW , its just odd in a proselytizing sort of way.

Eh, there's a large unknown community out there, we all keep challenging each other with thought experiments. Therefore, it's pretty easy for me to ramble that crap off. And yes, I'm proselytizing. In the past decade I've mentored around a dozen or so people to the ideas in secret. Maybe some thread lurkers here don't see a rosy future with the path society is on and are looking for something else.

https://anarchapulco.com/

Today in "signs of the end times:" A thread about limiting proselytizing on a climbing site descends into some dude proselytizing. 

Remember when the wisest man was the one who was able to say, "I don't know?" He must have been such an idiot; these days everyone knows just about everything.

JonasMRwrote:

Today in "signs of the end times:" A thread about limiting proselytizing on a climbing site descends into some dude proselytizing. 

Remember when the wisest man was the one who was able to say, "I don't know?" He must have been such an idiot; these days everyone knows just about everything.

Google it!

Claudine Longetwrote:

Eh, there's a large unknown community out there, we all keep challenging each other with thought experiments. Therefore, it's pretty easy for me to ramble that crap off. And yes, I'm proselytizing. In the past decade I've mentored around a dozen or so people to the ideas in secret. Maybe some thread lurkers here don't see a rosy future with the path society is on and are looking for something else.

https://anarchapulco.com/

I think you somehow envision a utopia when in fact humans could never ever make something so nice. I actually believe that we are lucky to have a semi solid democracy and fairly prosperous country even with greed and corruption. 

I used to think the only way religions could help the planet is if "God" was to show us a miracle or bring  Jesus back but now I know that even if we all witnessed a miracle at the hands of "God" half the world would deny it happened. 

M Mwrote:

I think you somehow envision a utopia when in fact humans could never ever make something so nice. I actually believe that we are lucky to have a semi solid democracy and fairly prosperous country even with greed and corruption. 

I used to think the only way religions could help the planet is if "God" was to show us a miracle or bring  Jesus back but now I know that even if we all witnessed a miracle at the hands of "God" half the world would deny it happened. 

WE ARE TOAST!

Pierre de St Croixwrote:

WE ARE TOAST!

 

but the believers will go to a better place when they die / kill the earth, so why worry? Drink the Kool-Aid and all will be better. Just have some faith.

Claudine Longetwrote:

Anarchy is merely my philosophical stance. Being an Anarchist forbids me from bringing forth anarchy to others if that makes any sense. It is a stance that no human being or group of human beings has a legitimate claim to authority over an individual's life. A philosophical base from which my reaction to every human transaction I engage in is quantified.

Regarding the whole Oligarch Billionaires thing, that is literally what you have right now.

It is 100% facilitated by Centralized Currency and banking combined with the imposition of personal income tax. Every single program the State enacts leads to cash flow upwards to the 1%. Income tax on individuals is the collateral the 1% demands in order for them to lend us what is supposed to be our own money with interest. The interest payments on the national debt is our labor monetized. No Central Banks, Centralized fiat currency, no Oligarchs. We've evolved well past the serfs in the mud stage and wouldn't stand for it if you didn't have the state providing cover.

As for taxation,  Google the FAIR Tax. Everything we demand of government (aside from paying off the banks to lend us $) could and should be financed by the economy itself, not individuals. The reason why they won't allow it is because the Dominant Paradigm uses income taxation as a tool for compliance. 

As for Democracy, which is truly horrible when the majority steamrolls any minority, we also have an answer to that in a system called Approval Voting. Cast a vote for everything and everyone you approve of, most votes wins. Invented by a mathematician. Had we had it in place, we might have had a Sanders presidency. Or Jill Stien or Gary Johnson. Definitely never would have had that dismal choice of Trump or Clinton. Again, Google analysis on it too. Keep in mind the Duopoly will never relinquish power until we end them.

I agree with a lot of that. However I've seen balance and well written and careful application of laws leads to the best outcomes (not that that is happening now by any means). The devil is in the details as they say. A FAIR tax would lead to mass tax evasion, it would be like prohibition with organized crime. It's much easier to track and 'confiscate' income tax. It also would lead to a higher overall percentage tax on low income people because they spend most of their money, while rich people invest and grow it. Yes you could have mechanisms to help with the limitations of FAIR tax, but we could also improve the mechanisms in our current tax code which is more likely to happen and probably simpler overall. A huge issue now is everybody focuses on the federal income tax and how the higher income people pay the majority of it (due to progressive taxes) but when you add all taxes (state, local, real estate, gas, sales)  the lower income people pay a large percent of their income as total taxes. The simplest easiest fix is to raise the federal top marginal income tax rate, corporate rate, and capital gains rate (although I think we should reduce spending, waste, and unfair loopholes before raising taxes) but what has happened is the opposite where Bush and Trump lowered all those rates so we have huge deficits which we all have to pay with interest. Yes a duopoly sucks and I almost always vote third party, but in terms of pandering to the oligarchy or workers there's a huge difference. The lesser of two evils is still evil, but I'll choose Scott Evil over Satan.

Thread drift on this is off the charts!

Gloweringwrote:

Thread drift on this is off the charts!

I am an Agent of Chaos

I could handle having an MP philosophy thread. Could be fun.

Because of a mutual friend, I’ve climbed with Mandy and some of her partners many times.  I never felt excluded or prosletized.  Hell, there was no talk about religion at all.  It was all about the climbing, with nice people.  I don’t think it’s fair to make assumptions about the intentions of this group, or to try to block this type of post on MP.