Nesting & clipping Totems

Christian Eatonwrote:

This. Not 100% totems but at least 75%

That's the most alpha anchor I've ever seen 10/10

Christian Eatonwrote:

This. Not 100% totems but at least 75%

Clearly the only correct way to nest totems.

Next.

Christian Eatonwrote:

This. Not 100% totems but at least 75%

“I read on MP to build the anchor using the rope”

11/10 I’d whip. Cool guy must have made that masterpiece of an anchor.

Christian Eatonwrote:

This. Not 100% totems but at least 75%

I don't like the angle on that far right cam.....YGD

Saw this in the wild this weekend while following another climber. Talked to him about it at the next belay and it was immediately obvious to him why it was wrong but while spooked on lead he didn't think twice about it. There is way more nuance to clipping totems than other cams because of the complex sling. This is the kind of stuff I was aiming to discuss with my original post so other people know why this kind of setup is wrong and/or dangerous. 

Honestly, I'm okay with it

Would only hold if both pieces were totems

I'm guessing that block shifts no matter what the totem sling does...

Top pointy block was actually really solid, attached to the mountain out of frame, so the #4 is great. The little block under the black totem tho wasn't great and prob would move enough for the totem to blow, and then it would be loaded on that little plastic thumb bridge, which would break and then get loaded sideways on the totem wires or the backside of the heads. I'm not ok with that, and neither is Totem! Basically this but with the carabiner pulling up. 

I’d guess that the thumb loop would break and the head of the totem would remain attached when it ripped, thus becoming a really expensive sling. Not ideal, but probably safe enough.

F Loydwrote:

I'm guessing that block shifts no matter what the totem sling does...

That'd be my bigger concern than the exact topology of the totem sling nesting...

I always just clip both to the rope independently. If one blows, hopefully the next will catch 

Most obvious is Magic X. 

(+ 1 sling and 1 caribiner = significantly reduced force on each piece) Ask for a soft catch as well!

And then there's clipping the pieces directly to each other somehow.. sometimes it works out and you clip two carabiners together or whatever..  very location specific though.. (if distance in height between the bottom of each piece is exactly one carabiner or quickdraw length for instance) Most of the time this will save you a draw or a sling, but NOT equalize the pieces.

With a magic X there's no guesswork. It will equalize.  If you're that worried about the rock quality, why fuss with something  that  *might* equalize,  or might just behave like you clipped each piece separately.

(or worse if you try to use a Totem cam like it's it's sling)

 What I believe you should NEVER do, (which is shown in some of the photos) Is to clip any sewn sling such that it could stress and tear open the stitching if it were loaded!!! There's a reason the stitching on round slings is done parallel to the sling,  not 90⁰ to it!!  

The slings on Totem cams are NOT round slings! (unlike the slings on other cams) You must account for this.

To put two carabiners in a Totem's sling and possibly pull in opposite directions, is comparable to clipping two adjacent loops on a daisy chain. It's crap.

A note on extension.  Unless you're underneath your gear and already nearly hanging on it,  sling extension causing more force on a piece is less relevant the higher you climb, as you're whipping on it anyway. The increased force (due to free fall acceleration) includes the distance you are above your gear when you fall.  Sling extension affects the relative height of the piece on the route. So yes it's a slightly longer fall, but most of that distance is rope. 

In conclusion,  Magic X.

I was pretty surprised to see totem repost this picture on their story the other day. I sent them a message asking about it but haven't heard back.

K Gowrote:

Top pointy block was actually really solid, attached to the mountain out of frame, so the #4 is great.  The little block under the black totem tho wasn't great and prob would move enough for the totem to blow

I feel like sometimes we (as a community) kinda miss the forest for the trees in these conversations.  In this image and with your additional information, the manner in which the cams are nested probably isn't even in the top 5 issues.  I totally agree that what's shown here is sketchy, but I think the fundamental problem is much simpler than "not knowing the nuances of nesting Totems."

If the #4 is quality, why is there a second piece at all?  If the Totem is in poor quality rock, why is it even there?  Why aren't the two pieces just clipped to the rope with their own separate draws and carabiners?  Why isn't this placement extended at all?  If the stance is good enough for you to stop and take a photo, why was this rushed?

I think it's easy to get caught up in all of the whiz-bang neato mosquito anchor configurations we are bombarded with on social media, and forget that the basic foundational skills are far more important.  Sure, it's not as sexy or interesting to talk about, but that doesn't mean it's not important.

I was pretty surprised to see totem repost this picture on their story the other day. I sent them a message asking about it but haven't heard back.

Oh wow, that's a double whammy! Side-loading the stitching on 2 cams, plus that's kind of a junk show anchor. I'm really curious to hear what Totem says if they respond. 

Kyle Tarrywrote:

I feel like sometimes we (as a community) kinda miss the forest for the trees in these conversations.  In this image and with your additional information, the manner in which the cams are nested probably isn't even in the top 5 issues.  I totally agree that what's shown here is sketchy, but I think the fundamental problem is much simpler than "not knowing the nuances of nesting Totems."

If the #4 is quality, why is there a second piece at all?  If the Totem is in poor quality rock, why is it even there?  Why aren't the two pieces just clipped to the rope with their own separate draws and carabiners?  Why isn't this placement extended at all?  If the stance is good enough for you to stop and take a photo, why was this rushed?

I think it's easy to get caught up in all of the whiz-bang neato mosquito anchor configurations we are bombarded with on social media, and forget that the basic foundational skills are far more important.  Sure, it's not as sexy or interesting to talk about, but that doesn't mean it's not important.

You're totally right about the black Totem placement here, thanks for your perspective.

I was following this pitch and not leading (see the rope going up?). I was more comfortable on the terrain than the leader was and so I paused for a picture to use for discussion/feedback to the leader. He had placed the black Totem first, then saw the rock below it wasn't totally solid so he threw in the #4 and since this was the last gear before the last couple moves to the anchor he just left the Totem in and clipped them as shown. Appropriate extension is also something that leader is working on, but when a little spooked or feeling insecure he was inclined to just clip and keep moving since the end was in sight. 

Also, as a data point, I made a sliding X on lead out of a 120cm sling earlier this summer, although it was clipping a bomber offset nut and a bomber (non-Totem) cam together. The reason I did that was because I was on a super long wandering pitch at Index and was running out of slings & quickdraws so this allowed me to use one sling to attach 2 pieces to the rope before an exposed sequence. It was super easy to do one-handed, clip the bottom piece, extend, clip the top piece, grab a racking carabiner and clip-twist-clip the 2 strands then the rope and I was done. Extension is important, but I had done the clip-both-pieces-separately method lower on the pitch in one or two spots and that contributed to me running low on extenders higher up, so gear conservation is another factor in this discussion. 

K Gowrote:

Also, as a data point, I made a sliding X on lead out of a 120cm sling earlier this summer, although it was clipping a bomber offset nut and a bomber (non-Totem) cam together. The reason I did that was because I was on a super long wandering pitch at Index and was running out of slings & quickdraws so this allowed me to use one sling to attach 2 pieces to the rope before an exposed sequence. It was super easy to do one-handed, clip the bottom piece, extend, clip the top piece, grab a racking carabiner and clip-twist-clip the 2 strands then the rope and I was done. 

If they were both bomber, why did you need them both?  :-)

(only kidding; it is perfectly reasonable to double up before hard moves with high consequences)

Snark aside, with a 120cm sling, a girth hitch master point would also be a one-handed operation without the specter of huge extension in case one of the "bomber" pieces pulled.   Another potential option (depending on their orientation/security) could be to clove hitch them in series (this would give you almost the full 60cm of reach to reduce rope drag).

Seen on a rock guide's IG story today. Probably not going to die if the totem blows (unless the rock breaks and they both blow), and likely an anchor for less than vertical alpine climbing but the stitching wouldn't be happy if the bottom loop got ring loaded. 

K Gowrote:

Seen on a rock guide's IG story today. Probably not going to die if the totem blows (unless the rock breaks and they both blow), and likely an anchor for less than vertical alpine climbing but the stitching wouldn't be happy if the bottom loop got ring loaded. 

Simply because one is a rock (or alpine or ski or IFMGA or whatever) guide doesn't mean they know all the things, nor put them into practice.