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Nesting & clipping Totems

Original Post
K Go · · Seattle, WA · Joined Oct 2017 · Points: 142

I ran into some weird clipping situations with Totems recently when doubling up placements on lead or when building anchors. I'm looking for some solutions that are time- & gear-efficient, easy enough to do one-handed (on lead) and also safe.  

Say you place 2 cams close by and want to quickly nest them without extending either, easiest way is to clip the top one to the bottom one's sling, but if the bottom cam is a Totem how do you do this safely? Here are 2 situations that both seem bad as they will end up loading the bar tacks sideways should the Totem fail but the upper piece doesn't fail (however unlikely that is). Totem manual says not to clip through the small sling eyelets for the rope attachment point as this obviously would put load straight onto a bar tack, so both of these seem bad as they do just that, load the stitching sideways. Is this actually dangerous? In these scenarios, you blow out both of those bar tacks, they act a bit like screamers and then you're left with a much larger sling loop that still would contain both carabiners, although this mangles your Totem sling and warrants a re-sling.

Before Totem pulls scenario #1:

After Totem pulls scenario #1:

Before Totem pulls scenario #2:

After Totem pulls scenario #2:

Inverse scenario with the Totem on top and a different cam on bottom you just clip top carabiner to bottom sling and you're set. You might not be able to reverse the placements based on what gear you have left and the crack sizes, however. This is golden:

Similarly, with the Totem on the bottom, if you want to combine the pieces but extend them with an extended alpine draw (and avoid using 2 draws), how would you do it? You can clip the alpine draw carabiner to the bottom cam (the Totem) then just clip the sling to the top cam as well, but doing it like this puts all of the load on the top cam first and the bottom is just a backup in case of failure. As the top cam blows, it will fly down and impact the bottom cam's carabiner which could land right on the gate leading to an unclip or open-gate loading situation. You could simply double up the bottom attachment with the racking carabiner and this seems to pretty much eliminates this unclip/open gate risk. 

Top cam blows, impacts bottom cam carabiner, doesn't give me the feel-goods:

Quick and free doubling up on bottom cam, problem solved? Still a few inches of shock loading, but what else can you do here with the Totem on bottom (other than use 2 alpine draws separately)?

It's a bit more awkward if you just want a quickdraw extension as the 2 bottom carabiners can sit in a bit of a fustercluck but it's probably not any less safe than the extended alpine draw scenario, just looks weirder. You could use an alpine draw and not extend it but then you'd have to deal with clipping one of the cam's racking carabiners to all 3 strands of the folded draw, sounds like opportunity for a faffe. 

Quickdraw clipped to both, but doesn't really give you much extension beyond the bottom piece. Also doing this looks and feels like a faffe compared to the minimal extension you actually get, more so than the extended alpine draw.

Same setup, just sitting weirder:

Inverse situation with Totem on top, it's just so easy. Clip top cam to bottom sling, clip draw to bottom sling, clip rope, done:

This last bit isn't something I've experienced a problem with but I saw somebody clip a Totem on the top shelf so I went looking for the proper way to do that and proceeded to get even less sure of the safest way.
As shown in the Totem manual and discussed in other threads here #1 and here #2 if you wish to clip higher on the Totem sling for whatever reason (aid, carabiner sitting funny on a rock, etc.) you are supposed to clip the upper shelf and also THROUGH the lower loop so in case the trigger wires fail on one side of the cam then the carabiner is still captured by the sling loop, much like how you clip a quad anchor. I understand this, but I clipped it like Totem recommends and whipped the rope around a bit and was able to catch the carabiner/rope in some really bad positions where the lower sling loop and rope pinch the carabiner in an orientation where it's loaded directly on the gate or it's nose-hooked on the upper shelf. Both of these positions could easily blow the carabiner apart in a whipper. It wasn't a fluke either, and no forceful positioning is required, the carabiner just has to slide up and fall back through the sling loop on the other side in any of the "correctly" clipped upper shelf orientations. These bad positions are quite stable and don't correct themselves when loaded like many cross-loading scenarios do.

Correct clip #1:

Correct clip #1 bad position A:

Correct clip #1 bad position B:

Correct clip #2:

Correct clip #2 bad position:

Correct clip #3, alpine draw:

Correct clip #3, alpine draw bad position:

These repeat for all of the "correct" ways to clip the upper shelf. Scary. 

Clipping the upper shelf "incorrectly" I couldn't simulate anything like this as the lower sling loop is inside the carabiner so no pinching action occurs. To me, the "wrong" way seems safer unless you actually anticipate reaching the breaking strength of the Totem's wires. If no wires fail but only 2 lobes pop out of the rock, you'd have to tear the Totem's head in half for it to matter which way you clipped the upper shelf, and I also don't see that happening. The "wrong" way is also way easier to actually clip since you don't have to thread the carabiner through 2 loops. The bottom loop is also so floppy that I couldn't simulate any sort of carabiner opening/unclipping either when clipped "incorrectly". 

The "wrong" way, feels safer to me:

The "wrong" way, with alpine draw:

What I've learned is that there's only one way to clip a Totem sling that is approved by the user manual and makes me feel good, and that's at the very bottom inside the sling loop. I'm still looking for better ways to nest Totems, however.

Thoughts?

Michael Abend · · Boise, ID · Joined May 2017 · Points: 60

You could just clip them both independently to the rope. 

Ben jamin Pellerin · · Spaceship Earth · Joined Apr 2021 · Points: 0
Michael Abend wrote:

You could just clip them both independently to the rope. 

This

Alexander Blum · · Livermore, CA · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 143

You are seriously overthinking this.

Jeff Luton · · It's complicated · Joined Aug 2016 · Points: 5

Is that how you mark all your stuff? I think I bootied some stuff of yours

M M · · Maine · Joined Oct 2020 · Points: 2

But totems dont blow bruhj

Adam bloc · · San Golderino, Calirado · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 3,171

JFC how is biner to biner not in here? 

W K · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2018 · Points: 167

Oooo wow look this dude can afford 2 totems

K Go · · Seattle, WA · Joined Oct 2017 · Points: 142

Great community y'all are creating here. Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk. I flagged your crackpipe comment, that was super unnecessary dude. 

Lots of people nest cams by clipping one directly to another cam's sling. Dale Remsberg (technical director of the AMGA) does it in anchor building like here and here and here and I have seen it in other MP threads as a quick solution to combine marginal placements without using multiple quickdraws or alpine draws. Here I show that doing this same thing with a Totem is different and perhaps dangerous, doesn't that seem worthy of bringing up in the largest online climbing gear discussion community? At least this deserves a PSA to avoid clipping Totems like this, as I searched and didn't find anybody else talk about this.

Apparently none of you looked at the 2nd half of my post. The officially sanctioned way of clipping the upper shelf of a Totem sling has sketchy failure modes, whereas clipping it "wrong" only has one and that's when half the cam completely breaks from exceeding MBS (seems like a much rarer scenario). Again, I searched and didn't find anybody else talk about this. 

~~

Totems are hyped because they stick where nothing else will. I'm starting to understand why many people find the climbing community toxic and unwelcoming. 

Yes that's how I mark my gear and no you haven't bootied any because I've never lost any. Thanks for trying to make me feel like a novice who leaves gear behind left and right. 

Totems blow if the rock blows. Nesting marginal placements even with a Totem is a good idea if the rock isn't perfect. Ever climbed on basalt or anything crumbly? 

I happily clip carabiners to other carabiners like a girth hitch masterpoint when it's appropriate. Can we stay on topic here? JFC.

I showed a picture of one Totem and one Z4. Math is hard. You can afford Totems if you prioritize your spending.

I don't know why I bother. This place really sucks. 

Steven S · · Columbus, OH · Joined Sep 2019 · Points: 16
K Go wrote:

Great community y'all are creating here. Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk. I flagged your crackpipe comment, that was super unnecessary dude. 

Lots of people nest cams by clipping one directly to another cam's sling. Dale Remsberg (technical director of the AMGA) does it in anchor building like here and here and here and I have seen it in other MP threads as a quick solution to combine marginal placements without using multiple quickdraws or alpine draws. Here I show that doing this same thing with a Totem is different and perhaps dangerous, doesn't that seem worthy of bringing up in the largest online climbing gear discussion community? At least this deserves a PSA to avoid clipping Totems like this, as I searched and didn't find anybody else talk about this.

Apparently none of you looked at the 2nd half of my post. The officially sanctioned way of clipping the upper shelf of a Totem sling has sketchy failure modes, whereas clipping it "wrong" only has one and that's when half the cam completely breaks from exceeding MBS (seems like a much rarer scenario). Again, I searched and didn't find anybody else talk about this. 

~~

Totems are hyped because they stick where nothing else will. I'm starting to understand why many people find the climbing community toxic and unwelcoming. 

Yes that's how I mark my gear and no you haven't bootied any because I've never lost any. Thanks for trying to make me feel like a novice who leaves gear behind left and right. 

Totems blow if the rock blows. Nesting marginal placements even with a Totem is a good idea if the rock isn't perfect. Ever climbed on basalt or anything crumbly? 

I happily clip carabiners to other carabiners like a girth hitch masterpoint when it's appropriate. Can we stay on topic here? JFC.

I showed a picture of one Totem and one Z4. Math is hard. You can afford Totems if you prioritize your spending.

I don't know why I bother. This place really sucks. 

Holy shit dude, you need to calm down and take a break from the internet. None of the previous comments come off as the person being a jerk just saying that you're overthinking things and that is unnecessary or they were tongue-in-cheek comments that you are apparently way too sensitive to understand. If you think this is the climbing community being toxic oh man I can't wait until you find Reddit or when actually go out climbing.

Jeff Luton · · It's complicated · Joined Aug 2016 · Points: 5

Damn homie, I was gonna mail it to you if it was yours. Was not even trying to be a dick. Older model camp orbit bines with the exact same marking, figured I’d ask. I use the shit out of them.
Also it’s not novice to leave gear amigo. Sometimes that’s the smartest/most responsible thing you can do.

For the sake of the thread. I agree with Michael Abend, A Blocs, and Alexander Blum’s comments. Although Alexander might be a dick, I’d go climb with him. Simple fella. I like that.

SethG · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 291

I was kind of hating myself for reading all the way through the first post but then the OP’s second post was so entertaining, I’m really glad I stopped by this particular thread. 

Bernardo Fanti · · Denver, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 0
Alexander Blum wrote:

You are seriously overthinking this.

This.

Also, you never left any cams behind? #skeptical

Alexander Blum · · Livermore, CA · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 143

Hey Gadget,

I read your entire post. I don't think your question/concern is dumb. I just think the answer is simple: if a particular configuration of gear (for protection or for an anchor) is unsafe, or makes you uncomfortable, just don't use it.

In my opinion, Scenario one is fine, if nesting gear in that moment is really important. If the totem fails its sling will bering loaded (as you show), and probably rip some bar tacks, but would be incredibly unlikely to fail. Even if every bar tack rips it will still be a closed loop.

If that doesn't work for you, there are still straightforward alternatives:

Scenario one: Move the totem carabiner up one 'level', then clip the top cam's carabiner to the bottom cam's carabiner. What you show in the 1st image below "Figure 10" is also totally reasonable. If you need 'true equalization' with no extension you'll need more than just clipping together cams anyway. The point is to avoid wasting a quickdraw or sling, not obtain equalization.

Scenario two: If this is the absolute best pairing of gear you can find, and there are no other choices, clip the top cam's carabiner through the two plastic loops on each side of the totem. This is a little funky but should load the totem cam evenly.

Images concerning the totem's 'top shelf': Can you make all of the bad positions happen by starting with a correct position and rattling the rope, or did you have to directly manipulate the carabiners into those positions? What happens if the carabiners are in a bad position and you weight the rope - do they stay in a bad position or move to a good position? If this is truly a problem, I would just clip the top shelf as shown in 'Figure 8'. I see why they don't recommend it, but unless one of the two plastic loops fails it's not going to be a problem. I would be comfortable clipping that way. (You state this in your post, just using many more words).

Ben jamin Pellerin · · Spaceship Earth · Joined Apr 2021 · Points: 0

Classic! 

Op: "Hey everyone what are your thoughts on all these pics?"

Everyone: "unnecessary"

Op: "everyone on this site is a jerk! I hate you all im leaving."

Fun stuff! 

Don't overcomplicate stuff. Clip the rope to each cam independently. If nesting to back up marginal placements what point is there in clipping the marginal placements together? Every single one of those pics looks wrong because none are the simple and direct solution. Gave me a headache looking at them. 

W K · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2018 · Points: 167
K Go wrote:

Great community y'all are creating here. Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk. I flagged your crackpipe comment, that was super unnecessary dude. 

Lots of people nest cams by clipping one directly to another cam's sling. Dale Remsberg (technical director of the AMGA) does it in anchor building like here and here and here and I have seen it in other MP threads as a quick solution to combine marginal placements without using multiple quickdraws or alpine draws. Here I show that doing this same thing with a Totem is different and perhaps dangerous, doesn't that seem worthy of bringing up in the largest online climbing gear discussion community? At least this deserves a PSA to avoid clipping Totems like this, as I searched and didn't find anybody else talk about this.

Apparently none of you looked at the 2nd half of my post. The officially sanctioned way of clipping the upper shelf of a Totem sling has sketchy failure modes, whereas clipping it "wrong" only has one and that's when half the cam completely breaks from exceeding MBS (seems like a much rarer scenario). Again, I searched and didn't find anybody else talk about this. 

~~

Totems are hyped because they stick where nothing else will. I'm starting to understand why many people find the climbing community toxic and unwelcoming. 

Yes that's how I mark my gear and no you haven't bootied any because I've never lost any. Thanks for trying to make me feel like a novice who leaves gear behind left and right. 

Totems blow if the rock blows. Nesting marginal placements even with a Totem is a good idea if the rock isn't perfect. Ever climbed on basalt or anything crumbly? 

I happily clip carabiners to other carabiners like a girth hitch masterpoint when it's appropriate. Can we stay on topic here? JFC.

I showed a picture of one Totem and one Z4. Math is hard. You can afford Totems if you prioritize your spending.

I don't know why I bother. This place really sucks. 

What's the biggest totem nest you've ever made and how did you clip it?

Franck Vee · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2017 · Points: 260

Yes you are overthinking it, those thong in cheek comments are still spot on in a way. But yes it's also fine to bring the line of reasoning forward.

There was a topic some time ago about micro/small cams "equalization". I'm sure you could dig it out if searching a little. Basically the take away seemed to be, for me at least, that the best/most straightforward thing to do is indeed to just clip both placements independently....

.... BUT you don't want them to be too far apart. The reason was that, should the 1st piece to load fail, the rope at that point has already stretched and given up most of its ability to absorb energy. Thus once the rope comes taught on the 2nd piece, it essentially acts as a static rope. Also presumably the belayer has already provided what dynamic belay he could. Thus the 2nd piece may well come to see equal or more force than the 1st. What determines how much force the 2nd piece will see is the length of the freefall between #1 failing and #2 becoming loaded. If that distance is, say (just throwing numbers), less than 1 foot, you probably can't accelerate that much. Thus the relatively static fall on #2 would probably see reasonable forces. That would also depend how much force piece #1 absorbed before failing.

For my part, I would ignore the multiple corner cases related to the specific slings attached to the cams you happen to use. It's just too complicated - I mean the cams I use may change, have their peculiarities, and while I'm sure I could do as you did and "learn" them, but if I happen to come accross that type of situation in 6 months I likely won't remember it anyways. Especially not on point, pumped to hell above gear on a greasy jam. Instead, I'd simply remember that when using 2 pieces toghether, I want then to come loaded as close to one another as possible, so I would just use a combination of draws/clippin point that achieve that within a foot or so. The only case where I would consider getting fancy would be on a project, where I know gear is crucial below the crux or something. But then I have the luxury of pre-equalizing stuff with slings/quad or whatever, and climb with the setup pre-rigged. So again, no need really to get into the weeds.

Franck Vee · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2017 · Points: 260
Auden Alsop wrote:

Tell me more...

Hey, you know, it's summer time babe.

slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,093

not sure if it was discussed (TLDR), but nesting cams on lead and nesting cams in an anchor are a bit different.  in an anchor, you aren't typically moving around a lot and shifting (aka screwing up) your cam placements.  on lead though, when you nest cams together they can both get screwed up when you bump them as you climb by, or the rope wiggles one of them.

i would just clip them separate, like others have said.

i think you have some good photos that show some pitfalls to avoid.

something that i do sometimes is to clip a shorter draw (or maybe no draw at all) into a crappier piece and use that to keep the rope close to the crack.  then, i sling the better piece a bit longer so that it has less chance of getting screwed up.  i call this "pinning" the piece, and i use this general concept for a handful of purposes - keep rope away from loose crap, keep rope away from pinch/snag points, etc.

LL2 · · Santa Fe, NM · Joined Sep 2016 · Points: 174

Props to the OP for posing such a thorough question. I kind of thought Totem-geeks would dominate the discussion with earnest input, rather than trolls trolling.

M M · · Maine · Joined Oct 2020 · Points: 2

Magic X baby

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Trad Climbing
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