Climbing and Affinity Spaces

Kalil Oldham wrote:

Yes. Mainly Confederate flags. They're all over West Virginia (which, oddly, is made up of counties that seceded from Virginia during the Civil War because they opposed the Confederacy).

I hear you. For me it's less about choosing not to climb with white people (I climb with lots of white people) and more about choosing when possible to climb with folks (of any background) who are interested conversations about race, power, and social justice (in addition to the typical climber talk of route beta, epic tales, and trip logistics). Of course, these choices and preferences are personal (as noted above, some climbers who are also parents choose to climb with other parents, for example). No choice will work for everyone. And I'm not inclined to disparage the choice anyone makes. For example, pretty much every white climber I know chooses to climb almost exclusively with other white climbers. This is certainly their prerogative, and I'm not here to judge.

I want to believe you have good intentions, but I cannot understand any way to interpret that bold sentence without it being a blatantly racist stereotype. 

Saying you are not here to judge after making such a judgmental comment is funny. It is the same as the people who use this phrase: "I'm not racist but, [say something racist]"

Kalil Oldham wrote:

I'm a little confused. I know a lot of white climbers. They mostly climb with other white climbers. What's wrong with saying so?

That's not what you said. You said they choose to climb with other white climbers. There are lots of reasons we choose partners. We choose people that climb at the same level, the same type of climbing, our schedules, some people don't like long hikes (like me, lol) and other reasons. But you are emphasizing race to the point that it is the only reason.

You are placing a heavy emphasis on race and it seems like you are projecting that onto others. Maybe it's a subconscious bias but it is very apparent in your words.

EDIT: lol, Jamila already said it better than I did!

Astrid Reywrote:

That's not what you said. You said they choose to climb with other white climbers. There are lots of reasons we choose partners. We choose people that climb at the same level, the same type of climbing, our schedules, some people don't like long hikes (like me, lol) and other reasons. But you are emphasizing race to the point that it is the only reason.

You are placing a heavy emphasis on race and it seems like you are projecting that onto others. Maybe it's a subconscious bias but it is very apparent in your words.

EDIT: lol, Jamila already said it better than I did!

The author of the article being discussed expressed the same sentiments about climbing with other brown girls. Even going as far as saying she no longer climbs with her white climbing partners because they make her uncomfortable. Hows that any less racist?

I suppose what do you want white dudes to takeaway from this article? What behavior needs modification?

Edit: I asked a genuine question and I got blocked.

Edit 2: when have I mocked anyone did you read climbing United, inclusivity in climbing or any of the other threads?

Kalil Oldham wrote:

I'm a little confused. I know a lot of white climbers. They mostly climb with other white climbers. What's wrong with saying so?

I supposed one could suggest that they're not making an active choice to climb with other white climbers, but it doesn't change the reality that most climbing areas are essentially affinity spaces for white people. 

I can see how refusing to acknowledge that would cause a person to object to non-white groups creating their own affinity spaces. I hope that people who so vociferously oppose these affinity spaces will take a step back, offer the benefit of the doubt to their fellow humans, and try to practice a bit more empathy. 

It looks like you added some more to you post so I'll respond to the additional part. I have never climbed in the eastern USA but here in Southern California most climbing areas are very diverse. There is facebook group that has more then 10000 members. Join it and you will see the diversity.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/SoCalClimbing

I'm not refusing to acknowledge anything.  I'm relating my own personal experiences. (and "affinity spaces for white people" is a ridiculous phrase.)  Honestly it seems like you are trying to twist your own issues and put them back on other people.

Jamila W wrote:

You are not a Black woman and can't speak for all Black women so please don't make broad stereotypical statements like this that make it sound like every one of us is concerned for our safety when we're climbing in WV.

Lots out people out there want to impose a victim mentality onto Black women.  Don't be one of them.  

I don't think he was trying to speak for anyone or create a victim narrative. He was simply echoing the sentiment of the author. The author being a brown skin woman who was nervous about climbing in a rural area filled with outward signs of racial intolerance. 

The authors spider sense was telling her she was probably not 100% safe in the mountains of WV because of her skin color. To ignore or discredit that intuition would be foolish at best and deadly at worst. She wasnt trying to create a victim narrative for herself. She was simply aware of the potential dangers of being brown in a places with so many outward signs of racism so far from potential help or safety. 

Im white and have been scared for my safety in rural mountain parts of Appalachia before. I dont think his intent was to speak for you.  And i don't think the author was trying to create a victim narrative. I think the author was simply aware of the potential dangers posed in that environment to a person of her color. And i think the op was simply affirming that yes he could understand the authors concerns. 

Rural America doesn't follow the same rules.

Astrid Reywrote:

It looks like you added some more to you post so I'll respond to the additional part. I have never climbed in the eastern USA but here in Southern California most climbing areas are very diverse. There is facebook group that has more then 10000 members. Join it and you will see the diversity.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/SoCalClimbing

I'm not refusing to acknowledge anything.  I'm relating my own personal experiences. (and "affinity spaces for white people" is a ridiculous phrase.)  Honestly it seems like you are trying to twist your own issues and put them back on other people.

Not alot of diversity at the crags in WV. 

PNW Chosswrote: Rural America doesn't follow the same rules.

As a reformed redneck, cities were scary. The news talks about constant crime, murder and drugs. Like any place rural America is mostly good people. To cast the whole place as evil is disingenuous. At the same time the evil 1% is probably a legitimate threat to people of color.

I guess my main issue with the article is that I will try to be someone’s friend. If someone doesn’t want to be my friend or finds better friends cool. I think it would be a bit weird to recommend someone go climb in a group with people who look like them. Like affinity groups should be the back up option to trying to welcome people into your group. Being inclusive in my mind is bringing people together and not separating them.

Read the article, and have some issues and curiosities with it (why did her Grandpa need to “escape” from the owner of a farm in 1930?), but the biggest potential issue is the continuing self segregation sold as a virtue.  If you wrote the same article through the eyes of a white KKK guy wanting to climb during special times that just he and “like minded” people could have the gym to themselves, and created a group to support and bolster exclusively “white culture”well that would be problematic. 

It’s not at all clear why she decided to self segregate and dismiss her white friends as essentially unable to relate or even discuss   

In essence, I thought she herself focused too much on race, incidental differences, and irrelevancies rather than commonalities and similarities and shared experiences, loves, and goals that are more conducive to breaking down the barriers that the vast majority of climbers don’t like, not just POC’s  

She had that going in the first camping trip.  Awesome start.  Develop and nurture and expand THAT, rather than withdrawing and segregating.  Seems to me, she may have taken a step back since then.  

Wow, 3 pages of mostly civil conversation about race in climbing! It's practically a miracle! Nobody has even been accused of being a racist yet. 

Mark Pilatewrote:

It’s not at all clear why she decided to self segregate and dismiss her white friends as essentially unable to relate or even discuss   

When you've been climbing abroad, have you ever found the other folks from your country or state? Were you more likely to do that if you were in a country where the State Department suggested you would be in danger? 

If you did Tuesday dinners with the American climbers at Ceuse, why is that different than doing Tuesday dinners with only American climbers and the Red? I feel like you already know exactly why that is different. I'm not sure why we all need to pretend we aren't normal humans when we start talking about this stuff. 

Big Redwrote:

. . .  it was sobering for me to realize that most of the climbing history we idolize from the 40s, 50s, and 60s was in the greater context of Jim Crow. 

This could be a little misleading. I grew up in the Deep South and learned to climb on my own there. I would guess that during the 40s, 50s and up to the mid 60s, 99% of the climbing done in America was not done in the South. So, the climbing history you idolize might not have been strongly affected by Jim Crow. Do you think of Royal Robbins in that context? Or the Stettner brothers in Chicago? Or Fritz Wiessner in the Northeast?

JonasMRwrote:

When you've been climbing abroad, have you ever found the other folks from your country or state? Were you more likely to do that if you were in a country where the State Department suggested you would be in danger? 

If you did Tuesday dinners with the American climbers at Ceuse, why is that different than doing Tuesday dinners with only American climbers and the Red? I feel like you already know exactly why that is different. I'm not sure why we all need to pretend we aren't normal humans when we start talking about this stuff. 

Haha, when I climb (or do anything abroad) I try as best as possible to AVOID Americans and do my best to butcher the local languages as well.
I get plenty of interactions with Americans when I’m home. I’m trying to expand my experience and comfort level, not withdraw into it. That’s why I climb in fact

But I get it.  But is that really the question?  What do people do naturally (and generally without intended offense or ill will), to feel more secure and comfortable?
  I have no issue with it and understand it for sure.  I just think that if one thinks we should be “growing” as a “community”...and expanding acceptance and inclusion, and breaking down long established “norms”,  it’s best done outside of traditional comfort zones, all around.  Doing what comes naturally to the avg person is pretty much how all problems start and persist.

And sure, I admit, “easy for me to say” as a privileged white ex-military male who doesn’t often encounter circumstances where I feel uneasy.  Just thoughts.  As I think most are, I’m on board with the goals

Mark Pilatewrote:

And sure, I admit, “easy for me to say” as a privileged white ex-military male who doesn’t often encounter circumstances where I feel uneasy.  Just thoughts.  As I think most are, I’m on board with the goals

And that's exactly the deal, right? Climbing is all about subjective risks and objective risks. We can all urge each other to overcome the subjective ones, but everyone gets to choose their own comfort level with the objective risks. If someone is facing more objective risks on the approach, then respect to them for dealing with those risks as they see fit. Whether it's the Karakoram or Appalachia or just carpooling to the crag, folks gotta deal with the extraneous objective risks best they can. 

JonasMRwrote:

And that's exactly the deal, right? Climbing is all about subjective risks and objective risks. We can all urge each other to overcome the subjective ones, but everyone gets to choose their own comfort level with the objective risks. If someone is facing more objective risks on the approach, then respect to them for dealing with those risks as they see fit. Whether it's the Karakoram or Appalachia or just carpooling to the crag, folks gotta deal with the extraneous objective risks best they can. 

Wait, “objective” risks?  Remember, we are in the context of climbing.  Are you saying that her objective risk camping out at the crags in a National Park with white friends was higher risk?  
I am unaware of any objective facts to back this up. Seems illogical. In fact, I believe one could argue she was/is likely “safer” from any objective hazard encounters (racist examples of rednecks, police, etc) either at the crag or traveling to the crag, if she was with a mixed group of friends vs doing the same with just her cohort of self described “brown girls”. So while she may feel subjectively safer psychologically, by isolating or segregating herself, she is not making herself objectively safer by any means.

Again, she’s (and the author) are free to comport herself/themselves however they choose.  No prob with me.  However,  I didn’t write an article, seek sponsors, or try to influence Instagram with my thoughts.  She’s throwing the pitches,  I’m just calling ‘em as I see em.  This one to me was “low and inside”.  And I’m rooting for her team. 

Mark Pilatewrote:

Wait, “objective” risks?  Remember, we are in the context of climbing.  Are you saying that her objective risk camping out at the crags in a National Park with white friends was higher risk?  
I am unaware of any objective facts to back this up. Seems illogical. In fact, I believe one could argue she was/is likely “safer” from any objective hazard encounters (racist examples of rednecks, police, etc) either at the crag or traveling to the crag, if she was with a mixed group of friends vs doing the same with just her cohort of self described “brown girls”. So while she may feel subjectively safer psychologically, by isolating or segregating herself, she is not making herself objectively safer by any means.

The articles first vignette claimed that Dickerson's previous climbing companions didn't grok her concerns. I don't pay much attention to potentially dangerous situations (in the sense of being vulnerable to locals) when I go to the crag. If she went with me, I wouldn't be on alert.

Later in the article they go through the list of precautions Leavitt with Brown Girls Climb takes when heading into potentially dangerous territory. Sounds like a lot of the things I might do if I was 'on alert.' Obviously being 'on alert' won't necessarily prevent anything. But it is the better than ignoring the potential threat.

Again, she’s (and the author) are free to comport herself/themselves however they choose.  No prob with me.  However,  I didn’t write an article, seek sponsors, or try to influence Instagram with my thoughts.  She’s throwing the pitches,  I’m just calling ‘em as I see em.  This one to me was “low and inside”.  And I’m rooting for her team. 

And you're welcome to be angry at the author if you want. Maybe she's on 'the other team,' who knows. But seeing things from the climber's point of view, she's probably just doing the same kind of thing any of us would do when we're trying to climb in an area that governments call "concerning."

Mark Pilatewrote:

In essence, I thought she herself focused too much on race, incidental differences, and irrelevancies rather than commonalities and similarities and shared experiences, loves, and goals that are more conducive to breaking down the barriers that the vast majority of climbers don’t like, not just POC’s  

She had that going in the first camping trip.  Awesome start.  Develop and nurture and expand THAT, rather than withdrawing and segregating.  Seems to me, she may have taken a step back since then.  

I think we should keep in mind that racism toward POC is a product of whiteness. When it comes to breaking down racial barriers and promoting anti-racism, is it fair for us to put the onus on POC?

More specifically, since nobody is harmed by the author choosing to self segregate (so it’s not inherently racist, despite the baggage associated to the words) is it our place to call them out for not doing more? Why do we feel that the author shares in our responsibility to dismantle racism in this context? 

David Devillewrote:

I think we should keep in mind that racism toward POC is a product of whiteness. When it comes to breaking down racial barriers and promoting anti-racism, is it fair for us to put the onus on POC?

More specifically, since nobody is harmed by the author choosing to self segregate (so it’s not inherently racist, despite the baggage associated to the words) is it our place to call them out for not doing more? Why do we feel that the author shares in our responsibility to dismantle racism in this context? 

You saying that racism is only committed by white people is horribly ignorant. The country may parents are from, the Philippines, was invaded by the Japanese and our people were tortured and slaughtered. All because the Japanese thought they were the master race. Now this happened in the 1930s and 1940s. But I don't resent Japanese people today because of what happened more than 70 years ago. In the original story, there aren't any examples of actual racism that happened in this century. There was just a story about someone remembering what happened from the 1930s.

If you want examples of racism that really affects people today, where people got hurt and were not just scared by what they think might happen, we have the recent rise in crimes against Asians. And most of these crimes were not committed by white people.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56218684 

I think it's fair to put the onus on people that are doing bad things in the world today. You don't?

Astrid. I apologize that I have offended you. This may not help, but when I say whiteness, I am not equating that to white people, but rather a system of policies and culture that disproportionately harms POC and disproportionately gives privilege to white people. At least in the United States, this system was created by white people and disproportionately harms black and brown people.

I‘m not sure that I agree that the author ever expresses resentment toward white people, but perhaps one could infer that the author is expressing resentment towards a history of racism and a difference of lived experience that causes a rift in relatability with their white friends. I don’t want to pretend like I understand that lived experience or how one should feel given that experience. Given the history and context, I question the notion that black and brown people should be expected to befriend and include themselves in what they view as a white space.

I agree that racism toward Asians should not be tolerated. 

New river gorge in 1985. There were a group of us camped on an old abandoned bridge after climbing all day. Just by being climbers we looked and acted different than the locals. We were looked at as pot smokin hippie dirtbags by some folks. (That's who we really were honestly) anyway, about 2 in the morning a couple of dudes pull up in an old truck and the park near us. One guy gets out and starts loading a shotgun and says " might have to kill some of these college faggots". They were drunk and slurring their words. I moved away very quietly and didnt sleep again till they left about daylight.

I'm white, we all were. I tell this story to show that in just being different we were a threat to be dealt with by someone with a warped mind. I grew up in the rural south.. Racism is really fucked when its mixed with the right amount of stupid, and theres a lot of stupid out there. Knowing what I know, having lived 55 yrs and having grown up in the rural south, I think it's appropriate to really pay attention and call out racists when you can. As a white man, who certainly looks like a redneck sometimes, I'll have grown men wanna tell me a joke, but when the word nigger comes out I say stop and I give a history lesson to explain why it ain't ok to repeat the jokes of your father and grandfather to me. I have had some really good experiences and some folks changed as a result of those talks.