Fixed Draws in the Pipedream

Read this morning that the SLCA updated the bolts/anchors in the Pipedream Cave.  While I commend the effort, it is certainly disappointing that they didn't reinstall the fixed draws to the routes. Here's a link to their comments.

Pipedream Main Page - in the comments.

That said, has anyone talked to the camp host to see how many fixed draws were saved?  I'm happy to be part of the effort to get draws rehung and am also interested if efforts/organizations are out there to pay for new fixed steel cable draws?  Anyone got any beta on either?  I'll be up there most of the summer starting Memorial weekend and happy to get together with folks to reinstall if we can get the purchase figured out..

Thanks.

I'm sure there are plenty of stronger people to hang your draws back up on your summer proj..... duuuuuddde....

I think it's more that cleaning that back is going to be a bitch. Fixed draws would seem the smarter option.

Just think about the liability for an organization to maintain fixed draws. It's also not at all reasonable considering the proliferation across many crags. There is so much crap out there, and much of it goes in the recycling bucket during the rebolting work.

Good on you for wanting to help out with the decorating. Taking them down every year or two for an inventory would  be a good practice as well. It's integral to some steep crags, but community needs to do a better job of both limiting and maintaining these things. Especially if you want land managers to see them as anything more than a nuisance.

Franck Veewrote:

I think it's more that cleaning that back is going to be a bitch. Fixed draws would seem the smarter option.

The smarter option would be to have someone follow the route and clean all the gear, then rap. Yeah I know following a route does not add to one's gram feed hits. But the proliferation of fixed draws really needs to stop. These areas are not exclusive outdoor climbing gyms. Other people, non climbers should be able to enjoy them for what they are, in at least some resemblance of their natural existence. 

Allen Sandersonwrote:

The smarter option would be to have someone follow the route and clean all the gear, then rap. Yeah I know following a route does not add to one's gram feed hits. But the proliferation of fixed draws really needs to stop. These areas are not exclusive outdoor climbing gyms. Other people, non climbers should be able to enjoy them for what they are, in at least some resemblance of their natural existence. 

I don’t necessarily disagree with your view on permas, but have you climbed at Pipedream? Or, top-rope cleaned something as long and steep as Pipedream? I suppose it could be done with an ascender, but what a pain it the ass it would be to TR clean a 5.13 something that overhangs 45 degrees for 100’. 

Thanks Schmuck.  Sounds like some of the above posters haven't climbed in the PD.  Not trying to turn this into a perma debate, plenty of threads on that.  I'm looking for resources to replace the perma's that were taken down.  Whether that is an organization, GoFundMe thing, or maybe someone that wants to make a donation.  

My guess is that it will be equipped by the time you get there, and I agree that the Pipedream is as good a place as any for fixed draws.

I just hope you can appreciate and ponder what it took to get the Pipedream rebolted by a professional, insured crew on FS land.

Allen Sandersonwrote:

The smarter option would be to have someone follow the route and clean all the gear, then rap. Yeah I know following a route does not add to one's gram feed hits. But the proliferation of fixed draws really needs to stop. These areas are not exclusive outdoor climbing gyms. Other people, non climbers should be able to enjoy them for what they are, in at least some resemblance of their natural existence. 

Yeah, low-effort hot take really hit the nail on the head! These routes: [1], [2], [3] are definitely trivially easy to clean on follow. People only prefer fixed draws on these routes because it's better for their Instagram! Not because it's a massive pain in the ass to clean draws on routes like these. Did you bother to look at the MP page for this place before you commented?

ben jamminwrote:

Thanks Schmuck.  Sounds like some of the above posters haven't climbed in the PD.

Or bothered to read the comments on the area page. For those allergic to clicking a link:

Pipedream climbers! Be advised that climbers should be prepared to place their own quick draws or install cable draws at the Pipedream. All draws, connectors and chains were removed with the old anchors. A significant portion of the fixed hardware was in poor condition, or unfit for use by manufacturer's personal protective equipment (PPE) inspection guidelines, and was discarded. Some cable & stainless hardware was in great shape and are staged at the camp host site in Maple Canyon for climbers to inspect, update, and re-hang in the cave. The permadraws are all labelled individually with route, bolt #, and direction of gate. There are chains up top that will accept carabiners or screw-links. Climbers are encouraged to make their own choices about using any fixed draws or top anchor carabiners at Pipedream and other climbing areas.

Maintaining fixed draws is not a part of the SLCA’s anchor maintenance mission as these are PPE equipment similar to an individual climber’s harness, quick draws or belay device. Almost 240 mechanical anchors of varying construction, age and condition were replaced (and documented) with stainless steel adhesive anchors by the SLCA at the Pipedream in 2020 thanks to the support from this community.

ben jamminwrote:

Thanks Schmuck.  Sounds like some of the above posters haven't climbed in the PD.  Not trying to turn this into a perma debate, plenty of threads on that.  I'm looking for resources to replace the perma's that were taken down.  Whether that is an organization, GoFundMe thing, or maybe someone that wants to make a donation.  

Jesus... jammin you're a whiney piss aren't ya....?

You want a resource to go replace your draws?  Go get a job.

It's not enough that someone before you had some vision to actually bolt a good line... and then it's still not enough

that an organization had the vision to replace old bolts.

Good bolts and good draws are not entitlements.

Tom Horewrote:

Jesus... jammin you're a whiney piss aren't ya....?

You want a resource to go replace your draws?  Go get a job.

It's not enough that someone before you had some vision to actually bolt a good line... and then it's still not enough

that an organization had the vision to replace old bolts.

Good bolts and good draws are not entitlements.

Wow, who pissed in your Cheerios?

ben jamminwrote:

  I'm happy to be part of the effort to get draws rehung and am also interested if efforts/organizations are out there to pay for new fixed steel cable draws?  Anyone got any beta on either?  I'll be up there most of the summer starting Memorial weekend and happy to get together with folks to reinstall if we can get the purchase figured out..

Emphasis mine. Willing to help reinstall draws   . Willing to pitch in to a group purchase   . Where is the entitlement here? Fixed cable draws are a shared resource. Sharing the work of paying for them and installing them is totally reasonable, normal, and not whiny or entitled.

Lol, nice try Tom.  I do have a job and my partner and I actually donated to the SLCA for the bolt replacement as we love the Pipedream and climb there often.  I'm happy to contribute to a fund to get the perma's replaced, and do the work to get 'em back up.  Just seeing what resources are out there to possibly fund something which isn't out of the ordinary (the VRG for instance were donated by an individual).  I think you're just trying to be a dick.  Mission accomplished. 

The funny thing is that Tom could probably figure out how the Pipedream is getting reaquipped easily enough. 

As the season, rolls on, some other crags like the Pipeline and Compound are on the list so there will more fixed hardware to sort out anyway.

Just ignore Tom; trolling like they are on 4chan with nothing better to do.

I do agree there is a discussion to be had about gear placements, but perma draws and a lot of other climbing gear don't really take that much away from these natural areas compared to the benefit they provide.

Compared to the footprint of ATVs and snowmobiles, and the conplaints from some in those communities about sharing areas with other activities, climbing is really a non-issue. People can still use these areas while climbers do their thing; it's not like it's being closed off and destroyed for some private development or something or you can't share the "trail", because some snowmobiler, atv, or mountain biker can't be bothered to be considerate of others who may want to the area.

Frank Steinwrote:

I don’t necessarily disagree with your view on permas, but have you climbed at Pipedream? Or, top-rope cleaned something as long and steep as Pipedream? I suppose it could be done with an ascender, but what a pain it the ass it would be to TR clean a 5.13 something that overhangs 45 degrees for 100’. 

Alexander Blum wrote:

Yeah, low-effort hot take really hit the nail on the head! These routes: [1], [2], [3] are definitely trivially easy to clean on follow. People only prefer fixed draws on these routes because it's better for their Instagram! Not because it's a massive pain in the ass to clean draws on routes like these. Did you bother to look at the MP page for this place before you commented?

Regardless of the steepness of the route (because it does not matter), explain to me how unclipping a draw from a bolt on TR is anymore of a PITA as clipping a dry to a bolt and rope to a draw while on lead ??

Allen Sandersonwrote:

Regardless of the steepness of the route (because it does not matter), explain to me how unclipping a draw from a bolt on TR is anymore of a PITA as clipping a dry to a bolt and rope to a draw while on lead ??

Because when you unclip and come off, you end up dangling in space and can’t get back in without jugging or boinking. And, unless you are a complete animal, unclipping draws while top roping a really steep 5.13 you will most likely come off.  

Allen Sandersonwrote:

Regardless of the steepness of the route (because it does not matter), explain to me how unclipping a draw from a bolt on TR is anymore of a PITA as clipping a dry to a bolt and rope to a draw while on lead ??

Well, if the draws are fixed, you only need to clip them. If they aren't you have to put it it (and remove it) as well (and if you let go for whatever reason...). You can certainly argue against permas if you want, but arguing that in a route like that they aren't more convenient is disingenuous. Why not use some of the sensible arguments instead of the bad ones?

Frank Steinwrote:

Because when you unclip and come off, you end up dangling in space and can’t get back in without jugging or boinking. And, unless you are a complete animal, unclipping draws while top roping a really steep 5.13 you will most likely come off.  

And what you do when you are leading and fall off? Same thing ... (or lower to ground).

And, unless you are a complete animal, unclipping draws while top roping a really steep 5.13 you will most likely come off.  

The same can be said for leading and clipping a rope to a draw.

Franck Vee wrote:

Well, if the draws are fixed, you only need to clip them. If they aren't you have to put it it (and remove it) as well (and if you let go for whatever reason...). You can certainly argue against permas if you want, but arguing that in a route like that they aren't more convenient is disingenuous. Why not use some of the sensible arguments instead of the bad ones?

So far you have provided nothing to support your point, that is disingenuous.  Leaving crap behind because for some it is too inconvenient to hang their gear and remove is called being lazy.

JFC.. Gumbyville.  Guess I should have known.

ben jamminwrote:

  While I commend the effort, it is certainly disappointing that they didn't reinstall the fixed draws to the routes. 

I was definitely being a dick... I really wanted to troll the other guy on the other post about losing his ball nut.  He seemed just ignorant.

Then I saw how "disappointed" you were about the SLCA.  Just seemed odd to be "disappointed" about a minor inconvenience that

will take a couple of Saturdays to fix.  Just seemed like you should know better.  

Good luck down there at the PD.