Outdoor Activities and Marketing/Commercialization

I had the same thought listening to the first climbing gold podcast today. But at the same time its cyclical, did you miss the part in that very same podcast where they talked about the old Yosemite climbers doing ads? Give it another 5 years and it will probably die down again if I had to guess.

Franck Veewrote:

To me you are somewhat conflating 2 things that don't necessarily go together - what you call "depriving" climbing from other people, versus not actively pushing marketing images & lifestyle using millions of $ each years to convince people to try climbing.

If you have 1000 apples and everyone else has zero I would consider that deprivation. If you have 10 apples and everyone has 7 apples then thats not deprivation. In my mind the climbing is like 1000 apple scenario. If climbing is that important to you, its the bees knees, and you tell your friends how great it is but people get mad when a company does it seems a bit weird. 

I guess I'm basing my opinion on this:

• A good marketing campaign can have an influence on what people decide to do with their time and money
• I'm against the industry spending tons of money actively trying to drive people towards climbing, who may otherwise have been steered towards whatever other hobby and been just as happy with it.

Thats kinda my point I dont care what people choose everyone or no one can choose climbing their choice has minimal impact on me. Whether a company is forcing that or not I would prefer people live a more fulfilled life. If someone finds climbing because of an advertisement or friend it doesn't matter because if they found something that brings them joy who cares?

Also might I point out that I started a thread about climbing pants and no one recommended making their own everyone on here was advocating for x company. 

Frank Steinwrote:

Things sure were better in 1986! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XCyFd6gwxtw

I'm sure you're being sarcastic, but it's not exactly an industry secret that their margins are much better with bigger cars/trucks than with smaller ones, hence this trend (cars are in blue, pickups, SUVs & larger crap at the top, since 2000):

I'm not shopping a car, I drive a 2007 Hyunday with 150k on it, and I don't google cars ever, yet somehow 9/10 adds I see on youtube/facebook etc. are about pickups & SUVs. I'm guessing the algos know I'm a mid 30s guy, outdoor type etc... but I also suspect they simply divert more advertising $ into those things.

Or maybe you don't believe marketing $ influence anything. In which case, I suspect you drive a brand new Dodge Ram with the King Cab....

Franck Veewrote:

I'm sure you're being sarcastic, but it's not exactly an industry secret that their margins are much better with bigger cars/trucks than with smaller ones, hence this trend (cars are in blue, pickups, SUVs & larger crap at the top, since 2000):

I'm not shopping a car, I drive a 2007 Hyunday with 150k on it, and I don't google cars ever, yet somehow 9/10 adds I see on youtube/facebook etc. are about pickups & SUVs. I'm guessing the algos know I'm a mid 30s guy, outdoor type etc... but I also suspect they simply divert more advertising $ into those things.

Or maybe you don't believe marketing $ influence anything. In which case, I suspect you drive a brand new Dodge Ram with the King Cab....

Sarcastic, yes. Also illustrating the silliness of pining for some imaginary bygone era of “pure as the driven snow dirtbags,” such as the mythical Stonemasters, who would never, ever stoop so low in their love for the climbing lifestyle  as to shill for corporate America. 

Frank Steinwrote:

Sarcastic, yes. Also illustrating the silliness of pining for some imaginary bygone era of “pure as the driven snow dirtbags,” such as the mythical Stonemasters, who would never, ever stoop so low in their love for the climbing lifestyle  as to shill for corporate America. 

You're putting a lot of words in my mouth that I haven't said. I mentioned above I'm not sure I'd do differently if I were in their shoes. It's not a pro-athlete problem, it's lot of cogs running together, each contributing its bit. I'm just saying that what's happening in climbing is pretty typical to what our society tends to do with other nice things we come across: discover it, improve it, market the shit out of it, and eventually love it to death.

Is there another up-and-coming fringe activity we can compare ourselves to? Sailing? Cycling? Knitting? Are there similar marketing strategies from the world’s best knitter?

Or is the outdoor industry growing so fast that we are seeing 1000% increase in ads and marketing from companies who want to want to ride the wave?

I'm wondering to what degree this has gone hand in hand with the shift from climbing as lifestyle to climbing as sport, and with it, the push for performance.  As our worth as a climber increasingly is measured not in what we do for the climbing community but how hard we climb, we too are pulled into consuming more in the hopes that will help us tick one grade harder.  You definitely see the same trajectory in cycling, for example.

El Duderinowrote:

I'm wondering to what degree this has gone hand in hand with the shift from climbing as lifestyle to climbing as sport, and with it, the push for performance.  As our worth as a climber increasingly is measured not in what we do for the climbing community but how hard we climb, we too are pulled into consuming more in the hopes that will help us tick one grade harder.  You definitely see the same trajectory in cycling, for example.

I think it is the exact opposite. 30 years ago, all you had to do to get your free shoes and stipend was to make it into “Hot Flashes” a couple of times. If you garnered a feature article, you might have warranted a salary from someone like BD or North Face. All one had to do is climb hard and get noticed by the two main magazines. Nobody cared/knew if the climber was actually an asshole and poor ambassador.

However, these days, it is not enough to just climb hard to make a living at it. You also need a round the clock facespacetwittinstahashtag presence, community outreach, a foundation, and god knows what else. Actually performing these days has become ancillary. 

Mitch Steinerwrote:

Does anyone else feel this way? Am I just wishing I was part of the climbing culture back in the 80's, 90's, and early 2000's? 

Let's not fall into "golden-ageism." Bachar did plenty of ad spots for money back in the 80s.

I do agree that the current state of climbing/commercialism/social media is vomit inducing, but I hate it more for the way it gets attention to mediocre climbers, as opposed to the commercialism as a whole.

Pnelsonwrote:

Let's not fall into "golden-ageism." Bachar did plenty of ad spots for money back in the 80s.

I do agree that the current state of climbing/commercialism/social media is vomit inducing, but I hate it more for the way it gets attention to mediocre climbers, as opposed to the commercialism as a whole.

As did Bridwell, Kauk, Woodward, Destivelle, Moffat, Lynn Hill. The last two performed stupid human tricks on late night TV even. More recently, anyone remember Alex Honnold and Katie Brown hawking credit cards on Ancient Art?  

Doug Simpsonwrote:

I am 24 and identify as a trad dad

I think its a spectrum not binary.  You can feel like a trad dad one day and still channel your inner gym-rat/boulderer the next.   Need to be inclusive.

Pnelsonwrote:

Let's not fall into "golden-ageism." Bachar did plenty of ad spots for money back in the 80s.

I do agree that the current state of climbing/commercialism/social media is vomit inducing, but I hate it more for the way it gets attention to mediocre climbers, as opposed to the commercialism as a whole. 

Same. Emily Herrington sells whiskey, but at least she's using the money to continue climbing badass shit. People like Tristan Hamm are selling sugar-free chocolate, and using the money for posed Instagram shoots and adventure tourism. He's never done anything remotely impressive. He's marketing "the outdoor experience" to Netflix people in LA who will buy shoes and a harness, climb three times, and jump to the next trend. Experiential consumption often requires the consumption of physical goods. There is an environmental price to pay. (Don't get me started on Red Bull. While people on MP are losing their minds about the environmental impact of bolts in rock, Red Bull is bulldozing entire mountains in Southern Utah to make extreme downhill courses for extreme content.) (And actually, I did unfollow Emily Herrington recently. Even though I respect her as a climber, I couldn't bring myself to give a shit about her project, let alone her boyfriend's project, in the middle of a global pandemic and massive civil unrest.) 

In conclusion, get off my lawn. 

For the 50+ years of my experience, climbers have always been very conventional and very conformist. If there was no marketing or print/electronic media, they wouldn't know what to buy or what to think.

Honestly, I do not have anything against marketing or commercialization, as I understand that it is one of the most important things in nowadays business. I mean, let's be honest, you are not going to have any kind of sales in case no one knows about your products or services, the problem is that marketing is more important than the quality of the products or services that we provide. That is the marketing era for you. I am working on a website right now, and even there, marketing is the most important thing, as I have to choose from Adwords vs SEO. I am going to choose seo actually, as it is better but it is a bit more costly.

Not Hobo Greg wrote:

Ok, cool, so why do you care about any of this if you do it for yourself?

Bc it sucks seeing your beloved getting pimped out 

Leanna LEdzwrote:

Honestly, I do not have anything against marketing or commercialization, as I understand that it is one of the most important things in nowadays business.

You must work in advertising as and SEO specialist or Social Media Manager.

Creed Archibaldwrote:

Same. Emily Herrington sells whiskey, but at least she's using the money to continue climbing badass shit. People like Tristan Hamm are selling sugar-free chocolate, and using the money for posed Instagram shoots and adventure tourism. He's never done anything remotely impressive. He's marketing "the outdoor experience" to Netflix people in LA who will buy shoes and a harness, climb three times, and jump to the next trend. Experiential consumption often requires the consumption of physical goods. There is an environmental price to pay. (Don't get me started on Red Bull. While people on MP are losing their minds about the environmental impact of bolts in rock, Red Bull is bulldozing entire mountains in Southern Utah to make extreme downhill courses for extreme content.) (And actually, I did unfollow Emily Herrington recently. Even though I respect her as a climber, I couldn't bring myself to give a shit about her project, let alone her boyfriend's project, in the middle of a global pandemic and massive civil unrest.) 

In conclusion, get off my lawn. 

What an interesting perspective. Insert the quote here : You Look at the glass half full or half empty. 

You sir need a breath of fresh air. Based on your dis on Emily, its proven that you're just miserable. But let me see if I can help... 

Of course every company is gonna hop on the next "Fad". Heres where you got it all wrong though: We live in a very competitive world these days. Companies know this. People Know this. And people are sick of being... "Sold to": Like yourself. Hence, why you hate people like Emily who are out there doing great things with their careers. You may see her and I flexing on some pancakes before a climb, and may be judging and comparing the skills of "what they achieved", but what you are missing is the impact they had. 

Companies are realizing that in order for them to continue to progress with their marketing, they need to shift their branding to promote a movement. Get people involved, give back, help out. 

People like myself, Emily and others, do this in our own ways. We have our own communities, we have our individual messages and movements. We donate to causes we believe in, spread messages we personally care about, and have created a wave that takes real notice. Companies analise these, they track these, they research these, and they test these. When they see results, they look for ways to collaborate in more unique approaches than simple endorsement like Shaq on papa johns. YOU are not their customer. Their "Customer" is not someone that will buy a pair of shoes and put them on the shelf after 3 uses either like you think happens. Their "Customer" is that person they helped to INSPIRE, and have fallen in love with that brand for life, not for trial. 

Speaking for myself, I have a community of all sorts of different folks. Beginners, Dreamers, Professionals, Moms / Dads, Athletes, The list goes on. Thousands of those beginners are now in your community here, using mountain project, supporting leave no trace, explore don't exploit, helping others overcome personal and mental trials and tribulations, Oh and are funding various programs like mountain project to give you a platform to do what you do well at, troll. One thing that they for the most part have in common is that they believe in my message, my movement, and the efforts I put into the community, including the community beyond my own. My non-profit efforts, humanitarian work, Underprivileged Childrens work, and so on. Its this movement that the brand attatches to. The brand realizes that they have the ability to truly impact someones life for the greater good. Something that is meaningful and has an ability to change a life.

Just a light shift of perspective for ya. 

Tristan Hammwrote:

People like myself, Emily ...

lol

Since Tincup has come on the scene, props to them for sponsoring the AAC. However, their ads are lame, damn lame, real lame. Further, their whiskey is nothing special, they do no even make it. Just blend bourbon from MGP and single malt whiskey from Stranahan’s. At least if climbers are going to pimp their products they should have some input on the ads.

A hand painted sign in front of a false-front tent won't sell many cams and beanies, these days. You have to have your sign in places your would-be customers will see it. 

That's marketing, in a nutshell. If all those sponsored videos, and all the climbing-model photo shoots, and all the carefully prepared hi-res imagery, and all the lifestyles-of-the-capable-and-cooler-than-thou didn't work, they wouldn't be doing it. Marketing has to show a return on investment, and it does.

This suggests anti-marketers speak with forked tongues. By their jackets and their shoes, will you know them.